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MG TD TF 1500 Misaligned Radiator & Shell? BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG TD TF 1500 - Misaligned Radiator & Shell?
| For purposes of this description, use LEFT and RIGHT as you VIEW the photo, not left and right as you drive. It is apparrant to me that there is a problem with my radiator & shell alignment. Looking at the photo, you can see that the headlamp on the left is lower than the right. Also, what makes it perplexing, is that the slots in the shell that the light brackets exit is higher on the right. But, all bolts and holes in the mounting brackets, brace along the back of the radiator, bolts that hold the shell in place ALL line up fine. This makes me believe that the radiator and shell as a unit is twisted upward on the right side. You can see that clearly, as the shell on the right is higher than on the left. I also have a slightly larger gap between the side of the bonnet on the right and the right front wing than I do on the left. I cannot figure out what to adjust here. I cant move the light bar bracket on the left up, as the all holes mounting it align and the slot won't accomodate that as it's too low, and I can't move the bracket on the right down, as then the holes for the light mounting bracket and the brace running accross the back of the radiator won't align. Any input on this will be greatly appeciated. Thanks Larry  |
| L Karpman |
| LARRY, The more I look at it, things seem to change,, It seems like the "Left" headlamp bucket is sitting lower into the bend of its headlamp bracket than the one on the "Right",,,, That might be the start of more optical illusions.. Do you think it would help if you set up one of those laser lever devices available at Home Depot/Lowes to be able to really measure what is not level and by how much?? SPW |
| Steve Wincze |
| It appears in the photo that the biggest horizontal misalignment is the bumper, and maybe the passenger fender is a little high, although this may be camera angle. I agree that the drivers side headlight looks like it may not be down in the socket of the mounting arm? I would start with a yard stick ruler and get or confirm the bumper is level; and check the fenders at the same points. You can get a little adjustment of the fenders by loosening the mounting bolts. The headlight mounting looks like something is amiss. If the radiator lower mounts are all the way down on both sides and it is actually twisted , there is not much could be done, except a frame alignment. If the ruler says the fenders are correct, then you may have to "adjust visually" to the radiator. FWIW Dallas |
| D C Congleton |
| Thanks guys. As for the passenger side headlamp, it looks lower in the bracket because it was tipped forward in it's mounting. I corrected that, but the situation remains the same. I'm going to measure the bumper and the fenders as a start point. I agree the frame may be the issue, but the car tracks straight and true, and I'm not sure how driving would be affected by the frame being bent upward at that point. The rad mounting bolts are all the way down, with equal thread showing at the bottom of each. I'll report back. Larry |
| L Karpman |
| I checked all that was mentioned. The passenger side bumper bar is in fact 1/4" lower at the outer chrome bolt head than the driver's side. Can't seem to correct by loosenting and retightening the main mounting bolt on the passenger side. However the driver's side is a smaller bolt that passes thru the stripped threads in the frame and is nutted from the rear. I will try loosening this one and pushing down. We'll see. The passenger side wing (fender) is in fact 1/4" higer than the driver's side measured at the lowest point of the front of the wing. I will try loosening the wing bolts and lowering. I measured several areas down below, and find no difference between the sides of the front frame. One area, for example was measuring from the surface to inner part of the A arm at the castelated nut. I measure 8 1/2" to the center of the nut on both sides. I believe I can correct all this to some degree, but it is beyond me how to get the passenger headlamp higher, as the slot for exit of the mounting bracket is lower on that side. I thought of removing the outer of the two bolts on the passenger bracket and rotating the bracket so it tips upward more, but that might not only look odd, but would give me only one bolt holding the bracket on that side unless I drilled and tapped another hole. Any additional input appreciated. Larry |
| L Karpman |
| Rule #1 Never use a level when remodeling and old house. The wooden boat builder will always build her (the hull) by eye, walking many miles in standing back and looking from all possible angles. One photograph can play tricks. Got this from and old Nova Scotia carpenter and boat builder as he spit on his dirt workshop floor. SEAMUS |
| F. HEALY |
| Larry , there is some play available in the bolts that attach the bracket on the radiator itself that the piece which comes through the radiator shell attaches. Loosen these two bolts, and the two which thread into the bracket which goes through the shell. You might be able to jiggle the combination , and get a little upwards movement of the outer end of bracket. You can, of course, drill or ream the the holes larger in the bumper brackets, in order to have enough play to level the bumpers. A little "persuasion" on the end of the bracket, with the bumper removed, to bend/twist it upward or downward may be order. On the fenders, you may have to loosen the driver side as well and get what you can in the opposite direction. Really doesn't look bad, if you have the light figured out, and level the bumper. FWIW Dallas |
| D C Congleton |
| Thanks Dallas. Based on the fact other POs besides me have owned this car for 53 of its 54 year life, I'm never surprised by what I find. She is a great driver and other than the problem at hand, really looks good. I have no plans for a frame off resto though. I thought about your suggestion before and did get a little upward movement in the brackets that protrude from the shell on the passenger side. I didn't loosen the others accross the back of the radiator brace though. Guess I'll try that. As for the bumper, I think that will be a lot easier. Thanks again for the suggestions and observations. Larry |
| L Karpman |
| After reading the typos in my last post, it appears to be time to post my annual disclaimer of having any typing skills, coupled with a "middle" vision problem that seems to be compounded when pecking in the "little box" for replies. The spell checker also seems to have a mind of it's own. ;>) Dallas |
| D C Congleton |
| Larry, In addition to what Dallas said, check to see if the shell is 'square' by measuring the diagonals, and then take it off and square it up, using new radiator mounting rubbers. That should cure the headlamp. warmly, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Larry I think I would check the frame using the outline in the workshop manual. Place it on a level concrete/ asphalt and check your dimensions against the work shop manual dimensions. Sometimes if a T Series sits for years with one tire flat, it tends to warp the frame over this long period. This may not be your case, but before I started elongating holes and shimming things, I would check the frame out. Good luck, John |
| John |
| Ok, I get to add my two cents. Measure from the ground to the frame under the hood and then from the frame under the hood to the headlight bracket. Unless the frame is bent, these should be the same on each side. You mentioned that the passenger fender is higher. Loosen all the bolts that hold the fender on (including those on the running board) and I bet you will be able to readjust it. I never tighten my fenders until I get the headlight brackets in place primarily due to this exact result. |
| BEC Cunha |
| Bruce: I'll do the measurement as soon as I can clear the garage of my other car tomorrow. Storms in the area right now. You said, "I never tighten my fenders until I get the headlight brackets in place primarily due to this exact result." Could you elaborate? I don't see how lowering the wing on the passenger side would raise the light. Dave: There is no doubt in my mind that this shell is not square. Just looking at it seems to indicate that. If I take it off, and by some magic got it square, the bolts that hold the shell on and the ears for the light brackets would no longer line up with their corresponding holes on the radiator mounting brace that goes accross the back of the radiator. Right now everything lines up exactly, which is exactly what makes this so puzzling. John: I'm afraid if the frame is wrapped, I'd be out of luck in getting it straightened without disassembling the car. Also, if the frame were wrapped, wouldn't it affect driving? Larry |
| L Karpman |
| Larry - As for the frame being warped and the effect on driving - maybe. I have a TD that the hood (bonnet) never fit correctly and had the front bumper problem as you have. I put two jackstands under the frame at the front of the doors with the front wheels off the ground and measured the distance from the bumper bolt at the end of the dumbiron to the floor and found a difference of about an inch between left and right. The car drives well and the tires wear well. Careful inspection of the frame near the cross member and the engine show unrepaired collision damage by a PO. Jan |
| Janson Hurd |
| Check the rad bolts on the bottom of the rad...perhaps there is an extra washer holding one side up... can't think of anything else that would keep the headlights and shell aligned but at different heights? |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| Thanks Janson and Gordon. Gordon. That's something I've been thinking about. Last night I tried to check the rad mounting. I can see the bottom of the mounting studs and nuts fine where they pass through the radiator mounting bracket, but how can I get to a point that I can see the washer and rubber stack on top of the radiator mounting bracket? Thanks Larry |
| L Karpman |
| Think you can only see that from under the engine (as in putting the car up on a hoist).... the bolts on mine had two nuts on each and a number of washers (large) and rubbers! The took forever to turn off because of the cross member being right there...had to use an open end. |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| Yes Gordon, I have 2 nuts each on the bottom also. I did manage to slip my fingers in where the rad attaches to the top of the rad bracket. It appears there is equal space between the bottom of the rad and the top of the rad mounting bracket on both sides. There is no doubt that the rad and shell are distorted as a unit. Possibly from an old collision, where all other damge was repaired but not the rad and shell, or some other event. I believe the only way to solve the issue is to replace both. I was going to replace the shell, but now I'll have to consider replacing both at some point. I'm the only one probably that notices or cares, but at some point I'll probably do it. Thanks again Larry |
| L Karpman |
| Larry, It isn't uncommon for a radiator shop to reassemble our radiators wrong durning a recore. They are use to radiators which sit under the hood, and can be a quarter inch out of square or so. Our radiators support the focal point of our cars, and need to be dead on. It is a relatively simple matter to pull the radiator and check both the shell and the radiator for squareness. Taking the front bumper off makes it easier to loosen the four mounting nuts. Do you have the same amount of thread showing under each set of nuts now? But it is probably a winter project, as the car could be down for several weeks while you research the proper measurements and determine what needs to be done to bring the radiator itself back into square. I think the going rate around here to recore a TD radiator is about $450. good luck, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Thanks Dave. As I have been searching for a redone/recheomed shell for months now, I think I'll just expand that to shell and recored radiator together. What threw me off is that the shell and the rad seem to be distorted as a unit, as every mounting hole on the rad and shell align. Larry |
| L Karpman |
| Larry, That was my point. I'm betting you'll find that the radiator is out of true. It is pretty easy to put a shell out of true to fit a radiator. Just out of curiosity, and pardon me if you've already measured this, but can you measure the location (height above some datum) of the 'ears' that protrude from the shell which the head lamp arms attach to?  |
| Dave Braun |
| It looks like everybody wants to weigh in on this one. Once in a while, it pays to have a slow dial-up internet. In this case, the image opened very slowly, and the first thing I noticed, was that the roof line on the left house, was in perfect alignment with the scroll line of the image, which suggests by pure coincidence, that everything else in the image should be easy to reference. When the scroll line got down to the top of the windscreen, everything lined up - so far so good When the scroll line got down to the bottom of the windscreen, everything lined up Even the tops of the headlamps lined up perfectly But when it go to the tops of the fenders (between the parking lamps), here was the first misalignment. This suggested to me that the headlamps and the brackets, had been adjusted to themselves but not to the mounting point in the fender. Note carefully, that the curve of the passenger’s side fender has a slightly different curve to that on the driver’s side; and here I am going to suggest that the passenger’s fender is shaped differently than the driver’s side fender (in both cases, when viewed head-on). It's just possible therefor, that the car had been accidentd and repairs were not carefully made. Furthermore, it appears to me that the passenger’s fender protrudes a little further past the (vertical) tire line, than on the driver’s side - assuming the photo was taken dead, straight-on. Completing the image scan, the apron also appears to be a little off, but the bumper face is pretty well lined up. And the final point, is that the contact points of the tires, line up perfectly, as does the shadow. I think the passenger’s side fender has, some time in its life, been repaired or reshaped, or whatever, and that while the headlamps line up, the fenders don’t. I think that Steve Wincze’s suggestion about the laser level, is an excellent one. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A. Clark |
| Larry looking at your picture it seems to me that the top of your fenders is not in the same highth measure that from the fame and up or from the ground first thoralf |
| t g sorensen |
| OK, reply to Dave first - I measured last night from directly alongside the rear chrome scres in the apron to the center of each headlamp bolt and got 10.4 inches on both sides. Baffling, that the passenger side looks lower. Gordon - great analysis, but a bit confusing to me. Not sure I understand what to adjust. Can you explain, "the headlamps and the brackets, had been adjusted to themselves but not to the mounting point in the fender"? I did take a laser level, and to my astonishment, the line passsed thru the same part of the rubber ferrules on the shell on EACH side! Thoralf - the passenger fender is about 1/4" higher than the driver's when measured from the ground to the lowest point on their fronts (in front of the tires), but if I lower that fender, won't it lower that light which already appears to low?? Sorry for being a dummy here, but I am totally baffled as to what to adjust or fix. Larry |
| L Karpman |
| I liked Gordon's analysis. It was very Sherlock Holmes-like. So I'll try to play Watson. One front wing is out of line, flattened and hanging a bit down. That's where the laser level needs to check, where the headlamp stays bolt to the wing. (How Holmes deduced that it was the passenger wing that's out of adjustment is beyond Watson, but I digress.) Since the headlamp stay attaches to the radiator bracket via a round hole, it can pivot up and down. If one fender had a bad angle between where it bolts to the chassis and where the wing rise starts to happen, the head lamp stay could be rotated in its bolt and hang lower for the two studs to catch the wing. Since the headlamp fastens halfway along the stay, a 1/4 inch at the wing would be about an 1/8 inch at the headlamp. Hence, the radiator is right, and the head lamp stays and wings aren't. Loosen the wing bolts to the chassis and the radiator bracket to head lamp stay and rotate the head lamp stay to match the left. Use stancheons or supports to hold everything. Tighten securely, and then tighten the wing bolts to chassis. How did I do, my dear Holmes? warmly, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Larry;; I have been reading all the answers on this thread. Fantastic hints on what to do. To me , the front right wing looks a little fatter overall. It may be just the light reflecting off it.Why not make a cardboard template of the LH one at the rearmost point of the side marker. Then lay it upside the RH wing and see what happens. Many years ago I rebuilt a TF from Georgia that had been totaled when a police chief hit it hard on the left front wing and front 1/4 panel. It totaled the body. I ordered a new front left wing and body tub from Hutson in the UK. The headlight bucket was in a different position and the insurance had to pay for a replacement RH one to match. Sopmething like that could have happened to your car. Sandy Hudson Florida |
| Sandy Sanders |
Don't know if this will help....: |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| Great Gordon, Dave, Sandy. The grid lines really help a lot. OK, so now I need to confirm which side to loosen the wing and light bracket bolt (stay). Looking at Gordon's grided photo, am I correct that both of you are suggesting I adjust the RIGHT side (passenger) wing downward, after loosening the wing bolts, by rotating the headlamp bracket upward? Larry |
| L Karpman |
| Larry Looking at the grid lines Gordon added has me a bit more confused. One fender is high and the headlight on that side is lower. It does appear that there is a slight difference in the height of the headlight /radiator bracket on the passenger side. The issue of the radiator washers is a possibility. One other point to look at. Is there any difference in the spacing between the bottom of the hood and the fender on both sides? Your plan to adjust both fenders hopefully will get you closer. A word of caution. Make sure the headlight bracket if fully loose when you go to move it. The wings are very fragile to any front/back movement. What I was alluding to in my earlier post is that when I put my fenders on, I do not tighten them up until I get the headlight brackets on. Then I adjust them like your are planning. Any potential the one of the brackets was damaged and repaired incorrectly? May want to take them off when you start to do the adjustment and check that they are the same. |
| BEC Cunha |
| Bruce: You wrote: "Looking at the grid lines Gordon added has me a bit more confused. One fender is high and the headlight on that side is lower. It does appear that there is a slight difference in the height of the headlight /radiator bracket on the passenger side. The issue of the radiator washers is a possibility." Yes, the passenger wing/fender is higher, and the headlight "appears" lower, but I shot the headlamp mounting ears with a laser, and they are the same height. One problem in the photo is it was taken "before" I adjusted the headlight on the passenger side backward a bit. It was tipped forward a bit. I "believe" Dave is saying that if I loosen the headlamp pivot bolt and the wing/fender bolts, I can ease the passenger fender down, while rotating the bracket pivot bolt bringing the headlamp up. At least I "think" that what he is saying. I'm waiting for him to confirm that. You also wrote: "One other point to look at. Is there any difference in the spacing between the bottom of the hood and the fender on both sides?" Yes, the passeger side bonnet space at the very front of the bonnet side panel is slightly less on the passenger side. This would seem to match the situation. Can you elaborate on: "A word of caution. Make sure the headlight bracket if fully loose when you go to move it. The wings are very fragile to any front/back movement." I'm not sure I understand front/back movement, and by fully loose, do you mean pivot bolt removed? Thanks to all for all this great input. Hate to take up so much bandwidth, but I'd really, really like to correct this issue, and it has been a puzzle. I'm sure that this will make good info for the archives though :-) Larry |
| L Karpman |
| OK, I'm changing my story. After re-reading his last post I think Dave is telling me to bring the driver's wing/fender up, and NOT bring the passenger wing down. I'll confirm via direct email. Larry  |
| L Karpman |
| Larry, it would be humorous if you found the air pressure low in the drivers side front tire, after all this computer chair engineering we have done ;>) Dallas |
| D C Congleton |
| HUUMMMM,,, One more thing to look at, If you check the alignment of the verticle grid lins with the center of the grill, it seems off,,, do you thing that raising/lowereing the wings will correct that ???? SPW |
| Steve Wincze |
| Wow... Gordon put a nice grid on there. Gordon thinks the passenger wing is too high. I'm not sure if the passenger wing is too high or the driver's wing is too low. I would compare your car to another TD in the area and see if you can decide which wing you want to adjust. I second what Bruce said about the care which must be exercised to make this work, and also you may have to adjust both wings and head lamp stays to get them even (one might be low and one might be high). I was actually suggesting that you bring the passenger wing down. And I don't mean by just lowering the wing to chassis bolts, although they need to be loosened to do what I'm suggesting, I mean by forcing it down by rotating the head lamp stay by pivoting it about the radiator attach bolt. Be careful, the ears on the headlamp stay are fragile, so when you retighten it, make sure your ears are fairly parallel to the radiator attach bracket. I would get a second opinion on what I'm suggesting, either onsite, or from someone like Bruce, Sandy or Evan Ford on the board who have mounted wings and adjusted panels. I put some notes on the attached picture. warmly, dave  |
| Dave Braun |
| Look at the concrete on the left side of the photo (passenger side). It looks like there is a couple inch dropoff. Unless the car is sitting squarely on a nearly perfectly flat and level area, any and all measurements and even eyeballing are useless. Is the cement really like that or not? I personally don't think the fenders were an exact perfect match (ie mirror images) when new. You just have to loosen everything and jigger around so it looks right. The bar behind the rad as well as the "ears" for the light mount bars have way oversized holes, allowing a lot of movement. You have to loosen all of the bumper bolts (overriders too) to jigger it around. George |
| George Butz |
| Larry There are two "wings" on the the headlamp bracket where it attaches to the radiator bracket. Just the slightest torque on these will cause them to break. It is not unsusual at all to find that these have been brazed in the past. |
| BEC Cunha |
| Again, all good input guys, thanks. I'll check the tire pressure and move to another flat surface and re-photograph and take another look. I believe there's a misalignment with the wings "and" with the squaring of the radiator and shell also. Guess we can put this thread to bed until then. Thanks to all Larry |
| L Karpman |
This thread was discussed between 24/05/2007 and 26/05/2007
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