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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Moss Fuel Sending Unit Screw Error

I chose to buy a new set of screws that hold the low fuel sending unit to the fuel tank. I ordered a set of Moss Part No. 323-728 from Jeff at LBCarCo. Something wasn't quite right when I tried to install them today. At first I thought it was due to rust on the threads in the tank. My digital caliper seemed to say that the new screws were perhaps .002" larger than the originals. My thread gauge showed that the originals are about 34 tpi, whereas the new ones are 32 tpi. Then I read thde label on the Moss package -- SCREW & WASHER SET, 8-32. The originals seem to be 3BA. Fortunately, I quit before I screwed up the threads in the tank. It's hard enough to get a good seal at the sending unit using the right hardware. I'll contact Moss. Hopefully, A/S has the right ones. Bud


Bud Krueger

Bud, I had the same problem. Emailed Doug Pelton at the Frame Up to ask if he had the correct screws. He did and sent them off right away. They fit perfectly.
Mike
Mike TD/TA

Heard from Jeff Zorn that Moss has been selling the 8-32 screws for this application for a long time. No wonder there's such a problem with leakage around the fuel sending unit. Bud
Bud Krueger

Use some Aircraft Form-a-gasket #3 on the screws. If it good enough for FAA it should be good enough for an aging British bucket of bolts. If it would make you feel better run a 8/32 tap into the threads first.

Just a dab will do ya.

That is how I would solve the problem.
JA Lewis

I had exactly the same problem-ended up re-using the original screws-it seems to be generic.
Regards
Declan
D Burns

The screws are 4BA. It's easier to tighten them with the tank in position in the car if you use hexagon head screws. I bought some from an on-line model supplies company (www.maccmodels.co.uk).

Dave
Dave Williams (TD10254)

Dave, the original screws are larger than a 4BA and have about 34 tpi vs. the 38 tpi of a 4BA. Dave DuBois has provided a great list at http://www.ttalk.info/standard_threads.htm. Bud



Bud Krueger

Bud,
I did my sending unit awhile back. Doug Pelton also supplies the double lip round gasket , the rectangle cover gasket and screws.
Checked the unit this morning, dry as a bone! Hope this helps
.Vince
V DiGiallorenzo

Hi all,

I have no personal knowledge as to what BA thread was used here, and although I have a complete set of BA taps and dies 0-8, historically, in my lifetime, the only sizes commonly available in ironmonger (hardware)shops, were the even ones, mainly 2,4,and 6.

I believe the series was originaly designed for electrical applications, with a metric thread pitch, but from when I was growing up in the 1950s, and until quite recently, these BA sizes were used by anyone who wanted small (comparatively!) nuts and bolts for DIY etc. Within the last 10 years they have been supplanted by small metric sizes - most of the general public wouldn't notice the change or be concerned, since they were mainly screwing one into the other.

Within our general area of restoration however, the odd nos. do crop up fom time to, hence the need for me to own a fuller set of taps and dies. Thus older Smiths motorcycle speedo bracket fastening threads were 0BA, and Amal handlebar control clamps, and some carb.threads, being 1BA, with Lucas handlebar fastenings using 5BA.

Presumably these sizes were used at the time because they were stong enough and looked 'right', the latter probably a dated concept today! Also the complete BA range was available in the 1950s-70s, at appropriate, although as time went on, increasingly specialised outlets.

Just of bit of everyday background to the historical use of BA threads in the UK - hope I've not bored everyone!

Cheers,

John
J C Mitchell

Bud, I think a few years back Moss offered two types of screws- one for original and one for repro tanks. Seems only one listed now? George
George Butz

Bud

You are quite right, the screws are larger than 4BA. My memory is playing tricks on me (and it was only last August I was repairing the sender unit and fighting the fuel leaks!). I think I must have re-used the original screws that attach the unit to the fuel tank. The big problem I had with leaks was the cover plate of the sender unit which did use 4BA screws. I solved that with a paper gasket coated both sides with Loctite 5922 flange sealant. It's been dry since.

Dave


Dave Williams (TD10254)

George, you may well be right (as you often are). I've had another indication that there may be a later series of replacement fuel tanks. Abingdon Spares offers a second type of screw:
19 157 Fuel Tank Sending Unit 83.88
19 157a Gasket, Fuel Tank Sending Unit 1.62
19 157b Screw w/Washer, Sending Unit 0.94
19 157c Screw, Sending unit, Repl. .61
19 157d Fuel Tank Sending Unit 79.95
19 157f Oblong Gasket, Sending Unit 1.08
19 157g Gasket, for Fuel Gauge Stud 0.12
19 157h Sending Unit Gasket Kit 2.82
I'll call them tomorrow.

There's a suspicion that Moss offer(s)(ed) a repro fuel tank that uses 8-32 screws and that they, for awhile, offered both types of screws. Intriguing.

Dave, you're right. The cover plate uses 4BA screws and the unit mounts with 3BA screws. Bud
Bud Krueger

Just got off of the phone with Abingdon Spares. They know about the screws. Their 19-157b is a 3BA screw. Bud
Bud Krueger

Response from Moss:
***
Dear Bud,
Thank you for your email. You are correct. The original tanks use a
3BA screw. The new replacement tanks are all using a 8-32 screw. If your
tank is original you will need to reuse the original screws. The 10-32 are
about a .003" size difference.
If you have any questions, comments or you would like to
place an
order please contact me. If you place your order online please add Attn:
Mark Evans in the comments section at the end of the order.
Thank you,

Mark Evans
Sales Account Manager & Technical Support
***
My response:
***
Hi Mark,

I'm not being egotistical about this, but I know that I'm correct and Moss knows that I am correct. The problem is that Moss is not informing the customers about this issue. For quite some time there has been an issue with leakage at the fuel warning lamp sending unit. Forcing an 8-32 screw into the original fuel tank 3BA captive nut is just going to exasperate the issue. There is perhaps 1/4" of the screw protruding into the fuel tank. This portion of the screw tends to become rusty. Removing the screw then causes the threads to be somewhat butchered as they're removed. It's difficult enough to get a removed, original screw to provide a good seal. Forcing in an 8-32 isn't going to help. 3BA cheesehead screws are readily available from British Screws and Fasteners for $.30. Abingdon Spares offers both types. Moss should follow their lead. Please don't make the problem worse than it is.
****
Bud
Bud Krueger

WOW!! Moss' response to my response:
****
Bud,
Thank you for your response. I understand the issue at hand. What I
am going to do is forward this email correspondence to Kelvin Dodd in our
technical services dept. I will also inform our marketing dept as well for
them to adjust the website to reflect that these screw sets are (not for
original tanks) to see if this will be something we can rectify in a timely
matter. It has been brought to my attention today that this was an issue
that has slipped through our product development dept and has not been
resolved. Kelvin will have the correct screws brought into Moss to kit the
correct screw kits along side the 10-32 kits for the replacement tanks.
Thank you for the nudge and bringing this issue back into the light for us.

Best regards,


Mark Evans
Sales Account Manager & Technical Support
****

Isn't that great? I'm flabbergasted. Bud
Bud Krueger

That's why I like dealing with Moss so much. If a problem exists with a part and it's brought to their attention, they'll work hard to solve it. I like dealing with friendly and knowledgeable people and Moss has that area pretty much covered. JMHO. PJ
P Jennings

John C. Mitchell I found some information on BA screws a while ago that said they were originally specified for clockmakers. But then were extensively used in the electric/electronic field. Could this be correct??
Cheers,
Bob
Bob Jeffers

Rest assured with Kelvin Dodd on the case, it will get done!
Carl Floyd

Hi Bob,

I'm no expert on BA or any other threads for that matter, but I was trying to give a bit of social history on the everyday use of BA threads in the UK during the 1950s onwards, ie within my knowledge and experience.

I understand that the thread was originally developed in the 1880s, from a Swiss thread form, primarily for British use in the clock/instrument industries. As far as vehicles are concerned, it was then used by British electrical accessory manufacturers,in the 20th century, such as Lucas, Rotax, Miller, Smiths industries, etc for magnetos, dynamos, and such like.

More info. can be found on the internet - is there a particular interest you are following on BA threads Bob?

Cheers,

John
J C Mitchell

Reactivating. Bud
Bud Krueger

Reactivating (again). BTW, Moss has done nothing about the error. Bud
Bud Krueger

Are you surprised ? they do nothing ? I am not . And have closed my account with them .
Gerard Hengeveld

Thanks for the heads up Bud. I'm working on my tank at the moment & am not too far from refitting my sender unit. I'm really glad I didn't! I also bought a set of screws from Sportsparts here in Sydney who gets some of their parts from Moss including these screws. Fortunately I've yet to fit them. Unlike Paul, I've found dealing with Moss (Leif Ericcson) is more painful than having teeth pulled. Kelvin Dodd was going to leap in action in June of 2012. Yeah right! The moral of the story has to be don't believe everything you see in print & give Moss a miss! I now deal with Abingdon Spares. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Correction. That should read Leif Jacobson. One of them is an actor the other might as well be!
P Hehir

Doug Pelton, from the frame up has the correct screw kit..as a poster noted on an earlier thread..excellent service too! Regards, Tom


http://www.fromtheframeup.com/
tm peterson

I second Doug Pelton, Great Guy.

Gerard
Gerard Hengeveld

If you purchase a new fuel tank, the threads are 8/32.
John Seim

Reactivated. BTW, Moss never followed through. Bud
Bud Krueger

Useful thread. Is it possible the terminal post thread on an original early tank sender unit is also 3BA? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Reactivating again. (Oct. 11, 2017) Bud
Bud Krueger

Timely reactivation as I am repainting my tank and misplaced the original screws. So did Moss get the correct ones?
Any other suppliers in the US?
Bruce Cunha

For the last year or so Moss has listed a screw set for original tanks. I can't verify if they are correct or not. It's too late for me anyway. I bought a set of what they were selling when I was rehabilitating my car and have been dealing with trying to get a good seal since then.
Joe


Joe Olson

I've pretty much changed from Moss to Abingdon Spares, rewarding personal service and Doug Pelton for critical stuff.
Bought a new Brooklins steering wheel from Abingdon and when it arrived the hub had a casting deficiency, called Martin at Abingdon and the next day a new hub was sent to me, I returned the damaged hub in their box at no cost to me, Great fast and friendly service. PJ

PJ Jennings

Reactivating again. Bud (5-31-2019)
Bud Krueger

All I can say is that if you find Leif or Kelvin to be hard to deal with, then there is a serious problem. They are both two of the nicest, most helpful people I have ever dealt with in my 30 years of dealing with British cars. I have come to consider both of them personal friends. These guys have done so much more than most realize to help make this hobby better for everyone and they do it selflessly. I saw Leif just yesterday here at the garage and he was telling me how much time they take out of their day to help people over the phone with car issues, even when those people don't buy the parts from Moss. I mentioned that I would never use tech support from one company and buy from another, but he said they don't mind, they just want to help classic car owners even if they aren't customers. Those guys have more passion than most, and are two of the real unsung heroes of our world. A class act.
Steve Simmons

Steve my issue with Moss is that far too many of the parts that they sell aren't even close to original, are poorly made or are unfit for purpose. I raised this with the CEO of Moss's Western Division about 5 years ago. I stayed up one night and called him personally at 3 am Sydney time and emailed him a list of 17 problematic items, which he promised me he would personally investigate and then reply with his findings. From memory I believe his name was Glen Adams. I never heard a peep from him. 5 years later and that list is now over 70 items long. It continues to grow and has been added to by dissatisfied Moss customers who have contacted me from all over the world, including members of this forum. This is why I and many others who restore T Types here avoid Moss. What galls me with Moss stuff (and staff) is that even when they are made aware of the problem, they do nothing about it. So I buy from FTFU now and continue to recommend that others here do the same. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Those issues have nothing to do with Kelvin or Leif. Those guys are using the same parts as us and face the same problems. Leif and I were just talking yesterday about the difficulty of keeping his 1934 NA race car going. And the constant issues of suppliers who make a part to spec, then change the spec without telling anyone because we simply don't buy enough 1950's M.G. parts for a manufacturer to care about us. That's one reason why they are a huge supporter of cottage industry, buying parts from many small and home-based parts guys to sell in their catalog.

Most suppliers, not just Moss, have parts that are not completely original. Some of them are downright junk. Many of Doug's items come from Moss, and others from the same suppliers Moss uses. And many more came from the machinist I introduced him to, who I used to make parts for myself and others for years, and who eventually (upon retirement) trained the guy who now makes the parts for Doug.

It's certainly harder to order from Australia but with any old obscure cars the trick is to know what type of items need to come from where. No one has a perfect stock, even if they're selling original stuff. I order a good amount from Doug, and he's in our club as well. But there are parts I don't use him for either. As time goes on however, his stock is getting more and more solid. If you're going to order from only one place, Doug is a good bet, even if it turns out the part has a Moss sticker on it. If you ask him, he will tell you if it's the same part Moss carries and you can then decide if you want to order it or not. Example, I was going to order a choke cable from him but he told me it was actually a Moss part and was virtually indistinguishable from the restored originals he also carries at a higher price. Since I already had a Moss choke cable I saved some money and kept it. He's an honest guy.
Steve Simmons

Well. I ordered engine paint from Doug (I try to order from Doug if I can) and the paint was the Moss MG TD engine paint.
Bruce Cunha

I have found Brown and Gammons(UK) and Anglo Parts (Belgium) supply very good quality parts. I generally restore/rebuild original gear throughout the cars, however if a new part is needed they usually provide a great service.

No financial interest.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

This thread was discussed between 03/06/2012 and 06/06/2019

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