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MG TD TF 1500 - Need some European help!

Greetings from across the pond!
I start this thread about once a year...sure enough it has come up again in another thread!
Normally I call it "Hand Clutch"!
I have this narrowed down a bit this year!
I have found the devise I seek! I have even found somebody that is the exclusive distributor here in the USA. Problem is the cost! By the time I ship the car across the country & back to have them install it ...I'm looking at way too much money! ($10k) Everybody in the US is so afraid of "being liable" they have lost contact with the reality that those are some of us that will actually take responsibility for our own actions!
These have been used in Europe for many years. Actually for a "T" series auto an older unit is what I need. (The newer versions interface with microprocessors on newer cars....haven't been able to locate the processor on my 55 TF1500! LOL )
The devise I seek was made by an Italian Mfg: GudioSimplex and is called the "Duck Clutch".
Does anybody over there know where there is one of these units sitting collecting dust?
If you had or know of someone that had a manual transmission and no left leg they might have used one!
I have pic's and info if you think you might have a line on one at a reasonable cost.
Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.
David 55 TF1500 #7427

David Sheward

David,
I can imagine that you can't afford to buy something that costs an arm and a leg.....

One of out clients (I'm a fleetmanager at a car-leasing company) runs a small delivery van with a hand clutch. I've been meaning to contact him for some time now to ask him how this system works, because Bas de Voogd was also contemplating one. He converted his VA with Morris Marina Automatic running gear http://members.chello.nl/b.voogd5/the%20automatic%20saloon.htm

Please mail me off-line so I'm reminded at home.
Willem van der Veer

Willem,
Tried to send you an email ...but your server bounced it back.
On the hand clutch ....this is what I am looking for:
http://www.brig-aydcontrols.co.uk/clutch_systems/duck_clutch.php
These have, (from what I have learned) been used in Europe for years!
Here in the USA everybody is so afraid of being "sued" they have padded the prices to
figure in any "legal cost"! Can't blame some of them ...our legal system is completly out-of
control ...what with people launching multi-million dollar law suits because they were served
a hot cup of coffee or twisted their ankle because their own child made them fall in a store!
My hope is to find one collecting dust in somebodies garage over there and install it myself.
The "newer" units have all kinds of "computer interface to modern car microprocessors"
that I don't need and is another reason for the hi cost here!
David
David Sheward

David,
I'll keep eyes and ears open for this one.
Checked out this GuidoSimplex site and it is quite informative. However, as you mentioned already, most is about modern cars with power and electronics. No doubt that in the classic car era there must have been more mechanical devices designed to operate the clutch with another than left foot element (maybee knee or handoperated). One question though: if you would install some device yourself, would there be any government regulation/approval for this or is one free to make any of such changes in your country? Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

David, I got your mail, liked the gasstations' sign very much!

The system I'm "talking" about is on: http://www.modacq.nl/clickngo/eng/product.html
Our clients' car contract will end this year and the used system (bought by our client) will become available, but I don't know at what price (yet).

Problem is with these systems that they require a lot of electricity at sometimes low RPM's. A standard generator won't cope.

I will try to make a "spam"-mailing to the fitting-stations in search of a "Duck-clutch" gathering dust. (this way your investment in stamps may pay off handsomely....)



Willem van der Veer

I'd say that installing an alternator to power such a system would be a small sacrifice that I'd be willing to make if it meant the difference between driving a T-Type and sitting looking at one!
Derek Nicholson

David
An Italian called Maurizio owns the village garage here and he imports old Italian three wheel trucklets and motor bikes. I will have a word with him.
John
J James

David,
Back in the 50's, several makes offered electrically-operated clutches; among them I recall Renault, MG (Magnettes) and Mercedes. These were rather basic and without the fancy electronics. Essentially (as I recall) they depended on small switches to detect any movement of the shift lever. Moving the shift lever caused the clutch to be disengaged; stopping the movement of the lever allowed the clutch to gradually re-engage. (I don't know how the "gradually" was managed, however.) I've only known a couple people who had these systems, but they all seemed satisfied with them, ONCE THEY GOT USED TO THEM.

One of these earlier units might be somewhat easir to find (and afford) than the "Duck" systems, which seem to me to be electronically quite sophisticated and expensive.
Carl

David...........you might just grab your wife by the hand and give her a good squeeze.
Colin Stafford


David. The Renault version was called FER-LEC. It was a magnetically controlled torque converter. It had Iron filings in oil suspension. when a megnatic charge was applied the converter locked up. I had one when I lived in France and it worked smoothly.
Sandy Sanders
Sandy Sanders

Wow,
Thanks for all the replies!
I have been looking into this for sometime now. I DO DRIVE the car! (I even have a "small light" under there so I can see if my foot is aimed correctly at night)
Tendency is to "ride the clutch".
The problems are:
Foot room, you all know how little foot room there is in a "T"...next time you get in yours keep your ankle completely straight and only bend your knee at a 90 degree angle whilst holding it up on the pedal. This will give you an idea of what riding for an extended period does to your back.
Back Problems, My doctors have told me I have a choice, from wearing the prostheses for so many years it has damaged my back...so, have 3 vertebrates "fused" by an operation ...or wear the leg less! (I opt for 2nd choice here!)
Heat, On a sunny hot day wearing a "tundra-hoof" is like having a cast...except you sweat in it and end up with a little pool of sweat in the socket that feels real funky!
Engineering, The "tundra-hoof" is made for walking.....not for sitting! It is most uncomfortable to "sit" in!
Okay ...got all that? On to the clutch!
Years ago I had an Austin and came up with a simple way to convert it to a hand operated system while still leaving the foot clutch for the wife...but that was a HYDROLIC CLUTCH! (Some of you I have sent the rather crude drawing I did of this back in the 70's using some motor cycle parts)It worked very well and had a very natural "feel" to it, allowed double clutching, heal-toe driving ...everything you could do with with your foot!
The M.G. is (as you know) a mechanical clutch....so the problem is not to "move the clutch" as much as is it is my desire to have some "feel" to the process!
A simple servo pulling a cable will engage/disengage ...but kind of hard to get a "feel" from that. (Does this make sense to you?)
If you look at the link I posted showing the "Duck Clutch" you can see that appears to be the answer for what I want to do! If you click just below that you will see the "Syncro Clutch" you will see how dependent this one is on information from other sources (speed, brake, gas pedal, ...other information from your cars micro processor (in a TF?) ...way "overkill" for what I want!
Okay ...anybody still with me?
The beauty of our LBC's ...KISS (keep it simple, stupid) !
Over the years I have kept it "REAL KISS" ... The starting crank on the TF (fitted with "correct period type" tennis ball" on the shaft) works for depressing the clutch! ...I do it all the time moving the car short distances, try it! It also helps build "upper-body strength" in the left arm!...but has not been fun to "defend" as acceptable to all law enforcement personnel here in the land of "gray men in thin suits"! LOL
From what I gather ...the "Ducky" has been used for years in Europe. There is an "exclusive distributor" here in the USA ...but neither they or Guido will sell me the thing direct. They want me to pack up the TF send it across the country have it installed and ship it back! (about $10k US!) I just checked ....I did not have the winning Megga lotto numbers from last night so ...back to looking for somebody that has an older unit collecting dust on a shelf and willing to sell at a decent price!
I can find all kinds of over-priced, over-engineered solutions....but IMHO part of the beauty of the TF IS HOW SIMPLE the car is...I would like to continue along that path!

A couple of things you guys did get me thinking about ...legal ...well explaining the "Duck" has got to be easier than explaining to the police (been there done this), when they ask "but Lt. Dan, you ain't got no leg" LOL
Amps and/or overtaxing the Genny! ...hmm honestly that is one I never even considered ...thinks I will have to see if I can find out how many amps the servo does draw when operating at low RPM!
Cheers & Special thanks to those of you that are looking for an "old Duck" for me!
David 55 TF1500 #7427



David Sheward

In reading your latest message, I had a wild idea. Playing "what if" games, what if you rigged up a cable to the clutch pedal with some kind of linkage they are talking about on another thread. The cable would have a grab handle mounted for your left hand. When you need the clutch disengaged, you pull the big handle. A pulley of some sort mounted to the frame would allow the cable to swap directions as necessary. The cable would necessarily have to come up through the floor or maybe the firewall. Just a wild off the cuff thought.
Jim Merz

Jim,
Exactly what we did with the Austin using an old Harley "Mouse trap" to get enough torque to allow one to operate but by LEFT hand hand on gear shift.
I even have a "mouse trap"...but the M.G. requires considerable force (I was surprised just how much) and have not been able to find anything short of a Servo Motor to move it! (Try pushing clutch in ny hand on a "T" ...takes some "pull"! Fire me an email if you want to take a look at the old crude drawing I did of my old set up for the Austin....it was pretty neat. (I left my email on this one)
When I purchased the M.G. I was going to build another one of these ...but by-passing the hydraulic part, it is just not strong enough....snapped the lever on gearshift.
Only thing I have been able to rig up mechanically to work requires a third arm ...unless you just let go of the steering wheel....not advised whilst cornering robustly and drifting through a corner!
Cheers,
David
David Sheward

Damnitall ...I meant "RIGHT HAND" ..not Left!
Right hand on gearshift...Left hand on Steering Wheel!
Otherwise the law takes a very dimm view of this! (been there done that!)
David
David Sheward

Dave, a good hydraulic engineer will easily put together a ram, 12 volt pump and valving to actuate your clutch. Alternatively have you thought about freeing up the accelerator foot with a hand throttle and using that foot on the clutch ? Would be much simpler to set up and should be feasible to operate.
Regards, Richard.
R Payne

Dave;
Have you tried this mod. I have done a few and just delivered one last Monday. It makes the pedal very much lighter. www.oconnorclassics.com/techtalk_clutch.php

Sandy Sanders
Sandy Sanders

David,
Just thinking along the line that Jim suggested. Is it possible for you to apply some force and movement with your left knee? Talking about the same amount of force like you applied with your hands on the starting crank [ushing the clutch. What if a "knee-pedal" gets installed just below the steering column. Suppose left knee will be at rest against the left carside. Now, clutching would mean pushing the new "knee-pedal" from left towards the right direction. Maybe a stroke of 12 -15 cm will allow a doable force to be applied. In this way, no extra power unit and steering electronics necessary and still the orignal clutchfeeling being there. Connection from this new pedal to the clutch lever could be by cable. Extending the original clutchlever ( make it longer by screwing a new piece of metal bar alongside the original one) would allow for a doable force and stroke. The cable can be fixed at the side of the pedalbox. I think this solution implies somewhat easier mechanical works. The original pedal can remain in place and the new "knee-pedal" could be made in an detachable way if wanted. Could make the getting in/out the car easier.
greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Is it possible to take two old master cylinders (one with a handle) and run a hydraulic rod to the clutch pedal?
gblawson - TD#27667

I love you guys....but everybody is trying to make this soooo much more diffacult than what I believe the answer to be!
Wish I knew / had a place to put the little zip file where I have collected some of the files in!
From what I have found as well, there are several ways to go.What everybody seems to be losing sight of is ...A: co$t and, B: simple, C: something that won't bastardize the car !
This is why I am learning toward the "DUCK" ! It has been popular in European market for quite a while and if you look at
the info I have in the zip seems very simple! (the old set-up I had for the Austin was very simple and required only "bolt-on" components.)
Being "old" I am hoping to find one from over there collecting dust and also hoping the electrical drain to be far less than some of
the modern set-ups! (The "Duck" goes back nearly 30 years!) It is smaller than most of the modern units because it "does less"!
Several people have mentioned conversion to hydraulic units ...but if you look at the install process ....good grief ....I do not want to
install something the size of a "log splitter" in the car and all that interfacing to brake & speed controls in not needed. One "coversion" a guy sent me pictures of the unit is twice the size of my little XPEG Engine! (and was $20k)
Looking at the Drivematic ...way overkill for a "T" series!
I really think the older "Duck" is the answer and also seems to be the easiest not only to install & operate ...but also to hide! Those of you taht have a Tranny out have figured out the same thing I have ...not too hard to "pull" the clutch linkage if you attatch to the right spot!
Cheer's
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Sandy,
Thanks for that! As I have a TF (rod operated clutch) I never knew what that little "plate" was for on the oil pan!(Pretty sure it is on my car...too cold to look today, snowing) Looking at the link you sent I see now that the older cars had a clip for a cable! LaVerne had sent me a pic of tranny that also gave me a little "wake-up" call! How stupid could I be? Every time I have looked at doing this I have been staring (usually after several cold ones for inspiration) at the linkage on the left side of car trying to figure out where I could mount the hardware I need to pull the clutch linkage. (It is tight because of the oil filter & steering on that side!) Duh....these cars already have tranny set up for LHD or RHD. If I can locate a "cheap Duck" this should fit nicely on the right side using a cable as it would have been set-up on an older car!
Richard, Problem there is then "brake"..if right foot is on clutch ...nothing left for the brake!
Still seeking cheap "Duck Clutch" to be the heart of the system...there has to be one of these just sitting in a junk yard or on a shelf somewhere in Europe just waiting for a new home!
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Still looking for "Guidosimplex Duck Clutch"!
To the gent that sent me the picture of a "purse made from a dead mallard" ....if you got the info from this BBS ...I am still laughing, that has got to be one of the ugliest things I have ever seen! I deleted it by mistake ...if you are reading this, please sent again!
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

This thread was discussed between 28/02/2007 and 12/03/2007

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