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MG TD TF 1500 - Need to become a TD expert...

Hello,
I'm a huge British car nut, and I have done a few restorations before (Brit and American), on many levels from a quick-sale turnaround to five-year frame-offs. I'm not a stranger to the pitfalls of the normal old-car hobby.

For my next project I'll be going to take a look at a '51(?) TD next week with the intention of doing another frame-off. I've never owned a T-series before and I'd like to know what the potential issues I should be wary of. The car was parked indoors in the early '70s, and has not been outside. There is some rust in the pictures but not nearly as bad as I have really, ever seen on a car this old. Looks like some boxed sections underneath the running boards? Every few years the owner would go out to the shed and pull the plugs, squirt some oil in the cyliders and turn the car over a few times, though it has not run since the mid-70s.

Car is fairly complete except for the top (though the frame is there) and the seat. How difficult / expensive would it be to locate the LOWER seat assemblies (the seatback is intact and in pretty good shape).

On that note, what are the major expenses I need to look at and make sure are present that I won't be able to find anywhere? On my Bugeye Sprite it was a working heater control knob/switch, and seat frames. For some other cars you'll never find a functional grille. What are some of those holy grail parts on TDs that I need to make sure I have or I may never be able to find, at least without mortgaging my house?

What else should I be looking for? I'll be going to look at the car on Sunday the 22nd and I'd like to be armed with as much information as possible.

Thank you,
Darel Matthews
Darel Matthews

Here are some pics of the car I'm going to look at. I have dozens of pics showing parts removed from the car and all laid out, and it seems very complete (for how simple these cars were). It's even got a heater.

http://www.hunterdonmill.com/MG/MG/mg_02.JPG

http://www.hunterdonmill.com/MG/MG/mg_03.JPG

http://www.hunterdonmill.com/MG/MG/mg_05.JPG

http://www.hunterdonmill.com/MG/MG/mg_23.JPG

Darel Matthews

My first inclination: run away from it very fast. Even if free. Look at Moss Motors catalog and price the missing parts. Hubcaps, bumpers, rad cap wrong or missing. Price interior kit, top (hood), toneau cover, side curtain kit, carpet kit, missing seat bases, wiring harness. Are the dash gauges black? If they are, they are not original, and very expensive to replace - tach and speedo $400+ each from Abingdon Spares. Ammeter/oil also pricey. Brakes: price out all cylinders, hoses, shoes. Engine: rebuild about $3K if crank good. If not, add $2K more. Figure carb rebuild, fuel pump rebuild or replace. Tranny: all gears and such available, but expensive. Figure in clutch, seals, rubber kit, suspension rubber kit, shock rebuild. Biggest single thing: the body tub structure is wood. It appears that the wood has vaporized under the rusted sheet metal. Take an ice pick and probe all along the lower sides up under the sheet metal. Grab the door hinge pillars and pull in and out. They should be really solid. Other areas of wood rot common at bottom of door hinge pillars and front latch pillars where they connect with the big lower squarish piece. If the wood is bad, forget it. Also, all chrome looks shot, very expensive to re-do. Looks like major rust under the right door- good bet the wood is gone there also. Also , no pictures of the engine- no telling even if it is the correct type, ec. Will be interesting to see what others think. George
George Butz

Looks rough, lots of work. I assume there is some damaged wood in the car and that can be a trial. Also the purchased of a good set of British Whitworth tools would help.
Chroming on the rad alone can be expensive. Brakes would need to be completely gone thru and paint for thise unless you do it yourself is spendy.
That given they are easy to work on, great fun to drive.
Most parts are available thru various vendors, IE MOss Motors, Abingdon Spares etc.
Lots of work in that one but if you get it cheap enough would be fun to work on.
If you are planning to just turn around and sell it after restoration, you will not get your money back unless the car has a real provenance.
The other thing is the help from members of thkis board cannot be overlooked with advice and even parts. Good luck
Tom Maine (TD8105)

All cars are restore-able just takes lots of time and money. Surely you can buy a very nice TD for a lot less that it will take you to restore this one. But if you're doing it as a hobby and you love working on old cars--go for it. Here is a photo of my TF the day a bought it.


David Werblow

Here's what she looks like today after five years of labor and $16,000 of additional expenditure.


David Werblow

I don't know if I would run away but I might walk real fast.

Number one thing on a T type car is wood. Number two thing is wood. Looks like this one needs a full tub rebuild. Neither cheap or fun. Easily spend 20 to 25 thousand just on parts to cherry it out. But it can be done.
LaVerne

Thanks guys. A lot of the pictures I didn't put up show some of those parts you mentioned, complete windscreen assembly, bumpers, hubcaps, side curtains, top frame, all the trim, tools, hand crank, spare tire, all the trim. As far as I can tell the only things missing are the seat bottoms and the top fabric (which would probably need to be replaced anyway after 60 years).

One thing to note: I'm not looking for a driver. I enjoy restoring cars, I have no interest in owning them. To that end all the stuff you guys list sounds like exactly the same stuff I would run into on any other restoration project - no?

This car would get rolled into my garage, stripped to the bare frame, and rebuilt from the ground up. I would sell it on after it was done to finance the next project, however I don't ever expect to turn a profit. I do this because I love doing it.

David, if you spent only $16K on that car getting it into the shape you have it in, then I'd be a very happy man!

Please clue me in about the black gauges - mine are black. What did they come out of? Is there a reason I can't use them other than they're not original? Here's a pic of the gauges. They are all black:
http://www.hunterdonmill.com/MG/MG/mg_37.JPG

The engine is a correct XPAG and in fact this car is a matching-numbers car, and I have photos of all the badging on the car to prove it (#8148 if anyone cares).

Excellent advice on what to check for the wood rot - i.e. pulling on the hinge pillars etc. This is the sort of info I need to be armed with when i go to look at the car!

Here's the link to the entire picture page of the car. The current owner did a pretty decent job photographing it without being able to put it up on a lift, which is the most critical thing I need to check:

http://www.hunterdonmill.com/MG/MG/mgtd_for_sale.htm

Thank you all very much for the advice - keep it coming, especially with tidbits like shaking the door pillars!
Darel Matthews

I'd also like to point out one thing - in addition to restoring old cars I'm also something of a woodworker with a modestly equipped woodshop. Is re-wooding one of these cars, assuming the original wood is salvageable as a pattern, anywhere within the realm of possibility?
Darel Matthews

I've been wanting something "wooded" - seems like a niche market that if I were able to do, might be worth something one day...
Darel Matthews

The wood is quarter sawn Ash.

Well made replacements are available from many sources. Moss and Abingdon having already been mentioned.
Assuming you can find the basic material you could make you own.

If you do tackle this do not throw qaway only of the old wood or metal untill you have finished.

I started my restoration 45 years ago I and glad I have carted the rustey and rotted parts over half the country. I refer to them almost every day.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

Looking at the instruments, my butt says Triumph, probably TR3. Jaeger label went away in the late 50s or thereabouts, replaced by Smith's labeled ones.

Bottom of the car looks pretty decent, shame about the tub. I have the theory that it is better to have things that are definitely bad than things you struggle over - same work to fix anyhow!

FRM
FR Millmore

The best advice I was ever given about restoring a car is to start with the best one you can find.

My opinion is that you'll be much better off buying a running car and doing a complete restoration on it. If this was a big money car it might be worth it. There are plenty of TDs out there. Check Ebay, Search Tempest, etc. and start with something better. It'll still be a lot of fun. Sadly, this one is little better than a parts car.
JE Carroll

The tub is really that bad?

Just priced out if I had to replace all the timbers in the tub from Moss - really it's not even worth trying to make them myself. Granted I'm making the assumption that I would be able to salvage 50% or more of the wood in the car, but they aren't that expensive. The only pricey bits are the plywood parts like floorboards and the have a $400 walnut dash. This is all stuff that's very easy to make yourself. The rest of the body timbers are pretty inexpensive IMHO.

Wheel cylinders and MC are pricey. These may be rebuildable but if not I'll have about $700 in brakes, which is more than I paid to replace the entire braking system on my Jag XJ-S! Still not shocking though.

Still not scared off yet! But keep talkin'....

Darel Matthews

The floor boards can be made. 3/8 Baltic Birch works well.
I repaired mine. I cut off the broken parts. Then put a 12 degree bevel on the old and new pieces and glued a good section to the old. The "lap" joint was 2" long.

Cost me $35 including shipping.

Jim B.
JA Benjamin

To get to your questions.

If you get the wood issues straightened out. Chrome may be your next big expense. While not all that many chrome parts, cost of getting them done correctly is pricey.

Next is engine items. Bearings and rings are not that bad, but when you start getting into crank shafts and cam shafts prices go up moderately.


With the exception of the rust, the body looks complete.

Unfortunately, the instruments are not MG. These appear to be from a Triumph. May be able to sell them to a triump owner. May also be able to have the faces changed to the correct ones.

For car 7589, Flat chrometric speedo and tach may be what came in it (not at home so can;t get to my reference). Some one list if this is past the flat speedo/tach.

Engine looks like you have most of the bit ticket items (air cleaner and manifold.)

Don't know what those things that look like spinners are from, but not MG. Post a closer picture of those. I would love to know what they are.
Bruce Cunha

"The tub is really that bad?"
It's a psychomental problem. If you have restored cars and you understand wood and metal work, not a big deal. Time consuming yes.

A running car can still be just as bad as this one, once you get into it. A "restored" car could be worse.

Be sure to check prices and especially interchange of things like brake parts - the biggest is not necessarily the best, or the best price.

What part of Pa?

FRM
FR Millmore

Excluding your time and labor, I would think youi could restore this car for about $17,500 in parts, paint, chrome and engine work. Unfortunately, you will probably have a $22-25,000 car when you are done. I would certainly recommend doing it as original, with correct gauges, fabric-covered dash, etc., if you hope to get that money.

Look on eBay at completed sales and see what sells (green) and what does not (red) - that will give you the best picture of what a TD is worth. You will be hard pressed to find a cheaper TD, but for the same money there are certainly better ones out there, with less killer rust issues.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Thanks guys, a couple more answers:

I'm near Wilkes-Barre, PA and the car is closer to Allentown.

The car was originally Clipper Blue, which I think looks almost as awesome as BRG, and if I did the interior in red with the red grille I think the car would really be a standout.

The spinners, from my perspective, do have an MG logo in the middle but yeah, nothing I know of.

If the engine does spin over easily as the guy says, with no sticking, I suppose that's about as much as I can hope for as far as crank diagnosis without tearing it down, correct? Or is there something I can check just in a few minutes?

Tom L, while I agree with you, I am the epitomy of the rust belt here. Finding a car for the same money with less rust would entail shipping it in, adding over a grand to the price tag. From someone who (from your signature) does this all the time, still worth it or no?

steering wheel doesn't look to be original? They're $500...

Thank you all, keep 'em coming!
Darel Matthews

IMHO: Nice as it is to see one "brought back" from that condiction I'm not so sure I would take that one on even if it had family ties of some sort.
I think Tom's estimate is on the low side of cost and the high side of re-sale.
Looking at that for $3900 and then looking at one that a member here sold recently at $8700 gives a pretty good idea of "what" is out there.
I would think the "learning curve" for doing a "T" would be far less time consumming starting with something allready together for the fisrt one.
I understand the concept of restoring and not keeping but I think you would be hard pressed to break even on this project. The unknown condiction of engine / tranny being a big part of that.
If you got Engine , Tranny, Brakes and interior gone for $5k you would be real lucky and will still have quite a way to go to get it to the level of the one below. Sold as a running / driving example at less $.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Not wanting to scare you away...hope you find one and look forward to seeing you on here!


David Sheward

I brought this home for 4 grand. Engine and transmission had been rebuilt by University Motors and never installed. Came with an additional $2500 in new parts still in the box. I put another $15000 in parts, paint chrome and powder coating the frame. I did all the work except the chrome and powder coating. The cost of the wood isn't the issue. The fittment is. Even though they are cut to shape, they are not cut to fit.

I would have guessed Triumph on the gauges as well. Long shot could be Jag.


LaVerne

A solid years worth of work later.


LaVerne

And this


LaVerne

Lastly


LaVerne

The man said:
"I'm not looking for a driver. I enjoy restoring cars, I have no interest in owning them."

Given that, a car like David posted won't really do, that's a driver. If he can break even on cash, or even close, the fun is far cheaper than bars or girls or golf.

spinners = JC Whitney

FRM
FR Millmore

Evidently I need to look around more. After about a week of looking around, the cheapest TD I saw was 5500, and it was 100 times worse than this one. I actually found 2 in similar condition and within $100 on price. Kinda figured that was the going rate at that point.

If I could find a car like the one Dave posted for similar money, I'd jump at it. I'd still end up doing the same work to it, but yeah, starting out nicer means finishing nicer.

If I were to buy this car as a parts car, what would be a fair price?

Darel Matthews

...I dunno....I'd go for it...you get nail clippers on the key ring and various Alfa parts, almost like two, two cars in one...and it will keep you out of the bars for years....

...not the same by any means, but mine was $10,000...put $5,000 or so in it and just hit 25,000 miles over the 7 years....there again, mine is a driver/rolling restoration(which will never be done)

http://www3.sympatico.ca/gordonblawson/td/td.html
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Patience, my son. If you want to find the right car, wait for it. There are plenty of TDs out there with $5500 as the ceiling, and most are better than this car. The rust issues are severe, and you will find more rather than less, I guarantee it. Renting a U-haul to go get a car two or three states away will cost relatively little, but result in a MUCh better project car.

If you absolutely can't wait, if you have unlimited funds, don't factor your time and effort into the costs, and are unconcerned about even breaking even, then take almost any car you can find and run with it. Unfortunately, most of the people in that situation later admit they wish they had waited for a better car to begin with, or they abandon the project and it becomes a project for someone else, until finally it becomes a parts car.

The Barrett-Jackson car is an interesting study (see another recent BBS post). The owner bought the car from the original owner, recently spent $62,000 to completely restore it, sold it for $66,000, and it's a FAR $10,000 away from being a good or correct restoration. VERY FEW TD's are perfect $50,000 rstorations, and there are even fewer buyers for such trailer queens. Again, just look what does and what does NOT sell on eBay.

Buy the best car you can is my advice, for the lowest price you can get. In the long run, a $5,000 car will save you $4,000 over a $3,000 car.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Have to agree with Tom. I might take this on as a full restoration if the asking price were lower, and I was keeping it (in the 30 years I have owned my TD, I probably have well over $20,000 in it) but if you are doing it to resell, you may want to spend a bit more up front and get one that does not need as much refinishing.

Now if you are building as original a restoration as you can, and plan on putting it on, say a Barrett-Jackson auction, spending $20,000 might get you some profit back.


As for the engine? Pull the pan, pull the head. A check of the bearing surfaces and clearances will give you a good idea of the wear on the motor. If not that bad, no reason to do much. But a set of bearings would be nice if they show any wear.

Decoak the pistons and put a new head gasket on. Check the head to see if it has had any work. No need to redo it for unleaded if the valves look good.

If the head gasket shows any signs of leakage, have the head magnifluxed for cracks.

The way the body comes apart, the rust should not be all the hard to fix. Metal is mostly strait sheets.

I am hoping this car does get brought back. Keep us informed and dont' hesitate to ask questions. This group is probably the best reference to getting the information needed to fully restore this.
Bruce Cunha

Darel,
You have already made the right "first step" to restoring a "T" car ... you found this site! I wish I had been that lucky when I bought mine. The archives on here are pure gold ... ad to that sites from Bud K, David B, Gordon L, and others and I don't think there is a subject about these cars that has not been covered. Search the archives for "ebay" and you will get a real good idea of market value / what is (or has been) out there.

IMHO: "Worth" of that one as a parts car depends a lot on what shape the engine and tranny are in. The seller tells us it was "parked" ...but reallly does not go into much detail as "why". Even though it "turns by hand" a cracked crank or 1st motion in tranny is big bucks for these cars. (Also being bad not that "rare"!)

Whatever you decide you are definitly in the right place here on this BBS. Welcome to the group!

Cheers,
David
David Sheward

OBTW: In case you wondered how I knew the price...
check the Thread: Barrett-Jackson TD.
There is a link to the car on that page.
Not much in the "T" market get's past these guys! LOL
David Sheward

All negatives aside, this car has one huge advantage over many others out there. Other than the dash, it appears to be totally original and never restored. Many of the lower priced TDs around have been repaired or restored many times or many years ago. The repro chrome parts are variable, with many just junk. None of the repro bumper bars or phillips chrome screws have ever been shaped right. Lots of cars out there with poorly replaced tub wood with ill-fitting doors, bad body lines/gaps, not to mention pounds of bondo. This car would be better to restore than many of those. George
George Butz

OK, here's my plan.

Please bear in mind I am looking for a project car, and not just one that needs a wash-n-wax. In the end I am going to be buying a car, som car, that I can perform a frame-off on. To that end, several things will NOT change regardless of whether I buy this car, or another better car, or a Jag saloon (which I'm also looking at). Those issues are:
- Chrome - Whatever car I buy, it will not have perfect chrome. In the end no matter what I will have a big bill from the plater. The fact that all the bits are present on this car is a plus, and really, there isn't that much chrome (as compared to say, a Jag saloon or a '52 Buick).
- Paint - gonna get done no matter what. Only difference is due to size I can probably paint this one myself in my garage. A better car will still need paint.
- Rust - again this is the big evaluation point when I go to look at the car. I'm not buying a rustbucket.
- Interior - No matter what I get it'll all be getting redone. Bonus: On these cars, what interior? :)

For any T-series car, I cannot see going through all this work, and reusing 60-year-old wood. If it's good now, it probably won't be after I put those first few miles on it. Wood is a natural material, it moves with moisture and temperature, and it decomposes naturally. I think using 60-year-old wood after doing a complete restoration that takes years is kinda like reusing the original oil. It's just going to screw up all your hard work in short order. To that end, I'll be putting my band saw to work and building new wood using the old as a pattern.

Here's my plan for this particular car: The only missing parts that I can see are the front seat bottoms. I have a tough time deciphering Moss's description of what you get for each individual seat part, but it looks like replacing the seat bottoms WITHOUT upholstery will run me $570 EACH. This is also buying from Moss, who in my experience with other LBCs is the most complete but also the most expensive vendor. I also noticed these $600 seat bases are just plywood wth foam glued on top. Seriously, no one has a jigsaw? I may actually buy one, just to use as a pattern to make about 30 more, and finance the cost of the restoration right there.

The gauge thing bugs me too. Even the $400 Moss repop gauges have some sort of a cryptic note that says "clock decoy is guaranteed to be right twice a day", so I'm not even sure I'd want to buy Moss repops here.

Assuming the rust is no worse than is shown in the pictures, I do plan on buying this car, however I plan on using the prices listed above ($800 for gauges, $1100 for seat bases) to talk the buyer down to no more than $2500. If he wants more than $2500 I'm walking away.

Please don't take this as disregarding you guys' advice - it is fantastic and I have taken every word to heart. However, again assuming te rust is no worse than what's showing, I do think this is a perfectly salvageable and otherwise unmolested car.

Big sticking point: I'd really rather have a TC. Anyone have a line on a partially salvageable TC? If I found a TC I'd walk away from this in a hurry.

Thanks everyone!
Darel Matthews

Sounds like a good plan to me ...$2500 seems about right. Keep us posted and good luck.

BTW: After the 52' Buick, there was a shortage of chrome for everything untill about 1959! LOL
David Sheward

See the Moss wood page- seat bases only $80 each, and the foam (seat page) $60. Plus upholsery of course. Remember the small gauges are $3-400 each also. George
George Butz

This really is a 'how long is a piece of string' question.

And also an economic one.

If you are planning to do it up for sale, then I would be prepared to bet that you would make a loss on the sale even against the cost of original car and parts, assuming you did all the work for love and costed it in at nothing. Even then it is never finished, always something can be done better. Each additional investment stage adds marginally less to the final value, and it is very hard to know where to stop.

I looked over a much loved family TD, last w/e, which had been professionally restored by one of the major firms in the UK. The finished cost was over £60,000 (say $95,000) and they started with a reasonable car. The major expense was on parts. It would sell in the UK for no more than £25,000.

If you are trying to do a quick and dirty 'do over' for sale, then it might break even, but your buyer would curse you to hell all the remaining days of his life!

These are hobby jobs for the retired engineer with a good engineering workshop, and loads of time on his/her hands, and committed interested grandchildren to hand it on to!
Ian Bowers

Guys, with all good arguments- the question should be how to get this TD back on the road rather than having it shredded for parts or rust into oblivion.
Darel, you seem to be just the man to take this on, just make sure you get the base at a good price.
The seat bases really are no problem, mine were rotten when I opened up for re- upholstering, and a bit of plywood and some more bits will give you a perfect base at low $$s. I added some springs between seat bottom and floor for enhanced comfort. Upholstering with foam pads is easy enough, but you need to buy the seat covers if they are not useable.
Making a nice wooden steering wheel from the old base is a good project, there's some good threads on this in the forum. And the center and spokes look as if they are still ok for that.
I share the concern about rust and rot, but most of this should be visible at closer inspection for you to judge.
No shortcut for the instruments, though, but maybe with patience you can get them used. And the dash does not have to be walnut veneer, most would be covered with leather/vinyl anyway.
Another matching numbers TD back on the road would be great!! It even has an Arnolt heater, a rare piece to get these days.
So let's combine all the best knowledge and experience to help get this car back to life if Darel is willing to go for it!

Mike
Mike Fritsch

Darel, I'm always delighted to hear of another TD being saved from the scrap heap. You might have a look at http://www.ttalk.info/The53.htm to get an idea of how I got caught up in one. Fortunately, the frame on 'the53' was solid. I was able to salvage one piece of wood. Only the cowl, the rear fenders and the splash aprons didn't need serious surgery. IMHO, if you don't have an assembled TD to use as a model you're asking for trouble. That rot by the running boards is indicative of total destruction of the main frame timbers. I wish you the best of luck and hope your pockets are very deep. Bud
Bud Krueger

Darel, if you get the TD and are looking for instuments please send me an email. Here is a picture of a TC or early TD speedo. The tach and speedo shown in your pictures are from a TR2 or TR3.
Cheers, Hugh jenntoo@shaw.ca


H.D. Pite

And of a later TD tach.


H.D. Pite

Hi Darel,

I would say good on you for saving another one of are lovely cars from the wreckers. I would also say reading the comments that you US guys are extremely lucky picking up TD,s for the prices mentioned. Over this side of the pond we have to pay around £6000($10000) for a basket case to restore.

5 years ago I paid £6500 for a basket case, all there but totally stripped and in boxes. The Tub was full of rot and filler. 3 years later after many many hours in the garage I took the car to a MGCC concourse show and was pleased to win first prize, Which made all the hard work well worth it. I thoroughly enjoyed the restoration and am now restoring a MGYA which I brought over for Ireland.These are few and far between now due to most being stripped for spares the the T Type. So I feel privileged to be able to use my skills to save these lovely cars for a future generation.

Buy the car and enjoy the resto!!!

I attach a photo of my completed TD




C A Pick

Oh, one other thing, I asked very early on but no one confirmed - Is this the correct steering wheel or an aftermarket replacement? Looking at photos of TDs online most seem to have a steering wheel with much thinner (almost wire-like) spokes. Did they change at some point and this car still has its' correct steering wheel? Since they're $500 for a repop that'd be another sticking point if it's not correct.
Darel Matthews

Not original Darel. It will serve you until you can find an original. As mentioned. You may want to see if you can pick up one that the plastic is so bad that no one would want to use it and then replace the plastic with wood.

There are a couple people on this web that have build these and at least one that does these for others.

Bruce Cunha

Oh and Darel. Why I can't say why the gauges were replaced with these, when I bought my TD back in 1973, it had the exact same gauges.

Hugh. I am reasonably sure the Triumph gauges are the same at the late TD with the exception of being black. Can you confirm that. If so, could the dial just be replaced? that could save Darel quite a bit.

I would also ask if some of the group have some of the other gauges that could be rebuilt. I think I have a amp gauge.
Bruce Cunha

Thanks guys! I'm privileged to have found such a helpful and active group of people!
Darel Matthews

If your willing to tackle this project, I am sure we are all happy to give our two cents. Quite frankly, we see a lot of TD's that are listed as "restored to original, no expense spared" that could be even better if the builders had just posted here.

It would be interesting to see if following the guidance of this group, we could come up with as original a TD as possible for a restoration. That would be a car I would put on Barrett-Jackson.
Bruce Cunha

...any of the plywood parts...floorboards, seat bottoms etc are so expensive from Moss (or anyone) that when you get them your first reaction wil be .... damn, could have done it myself for a few dollars. The seat bottoms won't come from Moss with the Dunlopillow molded rubber...just a chunk of foam that was shaped with an electric knife... save $500 and do them your self.... plans for the floorboards in the archives and i'm sure someone has the pattern (? and i use that term loosely)...for the seat bottoms.....

same really goes for the metal panels...except the scuttle.... a trip to the local metal supermarket and you have the sheet metal...doors are compound curves, but the rest really isn't?
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Darel,
Best thing about this group is many of us have made "the mistakes" but are willing to guide others on "how I should have done it".
I have been on here for over 10 years but still learning something new all the time.

While quite a few us have cars that are not concoures correct (me included) I doubt you could find a better collection of people that know what is right and what is wrong.

Like Bruce said: Woe unto the seller making such a claim once this group gets done with them! I have been about half tempted to "re-post" the advert for the "100 point all orginial TF" I bought just to watch the fun on here. Not even close ...but I still love her and with the help of many on here It's a much better "driver" than when I got it!

Hope you get it and look forward to watching the progress on here.
David Sheward

Hi Darel
Great topic/thread; evidently we’re all having a “If I could do it all over again…” moment. Like Mike Fritsch said, I really hope you restore this car and get it back into the MG family. This cars greatest asset: Matching numbers, and that is something that get attention at any show or showroom. I like your attitude: “Seriously, no one has a jigsaw?” …now with all your woodworking tools, you will enjoy the challenge.
I’ve replaced 75% of all my woodwork, fabricating all the pieces myself. (Seat bottoms, floorboards, dashboard are a no brainer) There is a book by Horst Schach, Complete MG TD restoration, this will be become your “Bible”, it explains the woodwork in great detail. And justly so, since so much depends on the frame’s integrity.
The Dash instrumentation: Take those dials to a specialist restorer, my dials, the restorer replaced the faces with a flat face panel, had decal stickers applied over it, and fitted the correct needle/pointer. No need to buy new ones. ( by the looks of it )
Steering Wheel: There are plenty original steering wheels on eBay, ideal for a restoration.
“The holy grail of parts”: …#1 radiator grill, #2 front & rear fenders,
I’ve done a lot of “self” fabrication work, and I bought original parts on eBay which I then restored. In most cases a much better option than a lot of “Made in Taiwan” reproduction parts from the mentioned suppliers.
Use Dave Braun’s photo library for a taste of what’s to come http://www.dbraun99.com/mgtd15470/
And also http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/ for originality.
Be Warned!! When you’re done you will not want to sell it
Good luck, …Some of my restoration photos below.



PJ Nel

It's painfull, BUT Always remember to have some fun...


PJ Nel

"Eureka"
2010 Winner of TD class, South Africa MG Indaba



PJ Nel

Darel:

See phot below. This is the before and after of one of the lower seat frames for my 1936 MG-TA. They are similar to the TD. Not difficult to make if you are handy with a band saw and saber saw. Contact me off board and I can forward additional photos.

I have a 1952 TD Mark II along with the TA.

John Masters
Wichita, KS


John Masters

Darel, I have one of the few Clipper Blue cars, not original but I did it cause the color is great and there are not a lot of them out there. More TC's than TD's. Chronometrics are on lower cars, mine is 8105 and still carried the chrono's. You can find em not working for about 2-300 bucks each and Richfield Speedograph in England did both of mine for under 600.oo the pair.
There is more knowledge on this board than in any other site, if you buy the car, all of us are willing to give advice if needed.
These are wonderful little cars and they become somewhat addicting to own. By the way, 1951 was the last year of Clippper Blue for the TD's.
I drive a corvette convertible as my other car, but there is nothing like going down a hill,around a curve in a T car.
Tom Maine (TD8105)

Thanks guys! I was actually really excited when I saw the Clipper Blue peeking out, no idea what the original interior color was, but there's a 50/50 shot it was red and if so, this car would look phenomenal in blue with the red grille. It would be a real standout. I may have to stray from originality a bit and paint the wheels red, too.

Still not 100% on where I'm going to go here, I do like this car but I like TA-B-Cs 100% more. The likelihood of finding a restorable one in my price range is not high, though.

Stupid question since I've never been in a concours:

How much do "period accessories" detract from the points total of a car? For instance, if I were to convert this car to wire wheels? Research tells me the factory offered a retrofit kit after the TFs came out. Also, that Arnolt heater - nice period piece to have, but correct? And how do you judge things like hose and fittings?


On that note, I've seen other T-series cars with that center-mounted driving light like this one has, but never a TD. Original? Period? I really like it and I'd like to keep it, but is it correct?

Again thanks to all, still planning on driving down to check the car out on Sunday. I'll let you know how it goes.
Darel Matthews

Darel - a commment or two. First of all, don't immmediately assume you will have to replace the wood on a TD. Many, many TDs have wood that is 95% fine, although the car may be ugly. I've got a Mark II out back as a project car, and it had been stored in a PA barn for 30 years. The only bad wood are the rear top rail amd the floorboards. I assure you, you don't WANT to replace the wood - it's a ton of work, and nothing else will fit right when you are done. Personally, unless there were some reeeming feature I would almost certainly walk away from a car with as much rust as the one you are considering, and ABSOLUTELY certainly would if a lot of the wood was rotten.

You'll not find a basket case TC for much less than $10,000 today, and a TA or TB will be close behind (I was lucky and got a TA two years ago for $6500). A good basket TD can still be found in the $3-5,000 range, if you are lucky. Not many sell for $2500. I've bought three rough Mark II cars on eBay in the last 2 years, and both were in the $5000 range.

I don't believe there was ever a factory "retrofit kit" for TD wires; you could, however, buy all the necessary parts individually over the counter. No TD came from the factory with wires. Nothing wrong with having an Arnolt heater, since many were dealer installed. Not so wires, which I also don't really like aesthetically. The wire wheels don't fill the fender openings the way the disc wheels do - the car looks spindly.

The light is indeed fun (and typically on cars from the UK), but not factory original.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

t lange

Thank you, Tom!
Darel Matthews

Concours is another animal:
Over here, anything not factory fitted or not factory optional extra(during time of manufacture) will see you with marks deducted. We MG nutters even count the number of pleats in the seat bottom and back :)

That centre spotlight isn't correct, the correct ones are Lucas 576 spotlights, one clear lens and one fluted lens.

I would also remove that badge bar since its more holes in the body work. I prefer the badge bar type fitted at the bumper to chassis bolts.

..my car has its detours from originality. But the more shows and events you participate in, the more you will eventually want to change it back to originality. (carefull with those red wheels :)

Lastly, essential for a good restoration: new cloth braided wiring harness, Carburettor rebuild.

...save the wire wheel convertion for "Phase 2", O there's always a "Phase 2"



Regards


PJ Nel

Darel,
Have you been here yet?
Should be able to figure out original interior color from the vin #, as well as "accepted" variations.

http://www.mgcars.org.uk/mgtd/index.html

Another one that might be of interest:

http://www.tregister.org/register_home.php
David Sheward

BTW:
TD8148 : XPAG/TD/8300 (Engine)
Built 07-JUN-1951 EXLU
David Sheward

Think the book shows Clipper Blue with Bisquit interior.. IMHO the clipper blue car wears wire wheels the best of all. As you can see, I am somewhat partial to them. They may not look right on all cars but the blue sets them off.
Tom Maine (TD8105)

Darel, what you have in picture 33 (which does not show on the sales web page, but you can access it on the list of pages) is (the remainders of) your original steering wheel (I thought I had seen it somewhere). This is what you can convert to a nice wooden wheel with the plastic already gone, as per my and Bruce´s remark. Theres some goof threads on this in the BBS.

I like wire wheels (unlike some others) on the TD and converted some time ago. Not a major deal, but requires some investment. With some time and patience, you can get good deals on wheels and hubs, but probably not everything.

Surely Blue will look great !

And I really like how the mood of this thread has changed towards a
"Let´s do it" attitude ;-)

Mike
Mike Fritsch

Holy crap, I never knew that. Now that I've found even more pictures I guess I'll be late for work. :)
Darel Matthews

David:

I have been on both those sites quite a bit, and while I was able to find the original build date I couldn't find anywhere on either site that describes the configuration of the car as it left the factory.

About ten years ago I did a frame-off on a 1967 International Scout 800 (I know, I know...long way off from little Brit cars) and that was easy - you just sent your VIN in to a firm that had a database and they made a reprint of the original line setting ticket - essentially the build sheet. You could see every part that went on the car, colors, tires, etc.

Anything like that for T-series cars?

Thanks,
Darel
Darel Matthews

As for losing points over WW in a judged show, it all depends on who's doing the judging. I personally don't think that any MG should be wearing chrome wire wheels; and consider that "gilding the lilly." There are also judges who will discount white-wall tires as being incorrect for a T car.
David Werblow

Just to further cloud the issues outlined here. I stopped counting at $40K. But I have a car that suites me and I am happy with it. It has all the mods I would love to have done back in 1952 when it was new and I couldn't afford it. So now people look down their nose at it because it's not "original" but it is period correct. It goes like a scalded cat. It is reliable and I am not afraid to drive it anywhere. Fortunately judges can't tear down a car to see what is not original. ( Only Mercedes meets do that). Sometimes they don't even tear it down, they just say it is impossible to perform like that and be original. I'll tell you the story.

I'd love to see you restore that car to driveability .
And I'd love to follow your progress on this BBS.
Please, pretty please!!
Cheers,
Bob
Bob Jeffers

Getting lots of replies from people wanting me to tackle this project! How about some donations? Parts or cash accepted. :)
Darel Matthews

Darel,
Oops might be my bad on that one...come to think of it I think they only have "Interior" color info for the TF. Not for the TD? Sorry, I'm old and become more confused as direct result of # of beers consumed on a given day.
My BMHT cert has it on there.
On the TF the "tell-tale" sign could be found under the scuttle where they painted to match dash.
Maybe knows a "secret spot" on TD?
Maybe hiding in the grill slats as they were painted interior color?
Keep the Clipper Blue...neat colour you don't see many of them.

Sorry again ...but I love my chrome 60's and my phat radials! Next guy can have the 48 painted wires...I saved them for him. Most concoures judges don't make it very far past my carb set-up anyhow! LOL


David Sheward

...secret place on a TD is between the hood hinges....unless they dipped the whole thing....

(and that wheel can be rebuilt with just a little time.....)
http://www.gblandco.com

I've retired, but not a hard job to do.....
gblawson(gordon- TD27667)

Darel

Looking at the pictures again, I see a few things. You have some accessories. The heater and the arm rest. Nice additions. Looks like you also have the remains of the under dash covering. Take care taking that off as you should be able to use it for a pattern.

The hub caps also do not appear to be original. Probably added to allow those large wings to be attached. I bet they made for an interesting look on the wheels.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce,
The heater did jump out at me. I didn't realize the hubcaps were wrong. I'm definitely not putting fake spinners on this car, maybe I'll hang on to them for when I take the car for a ride in the 'hood. One more thing to source, correct hubcaps.

I started out all gung ho about this car, especially if I can get him to knock a good chunk off the price, but I'll be honest if I don't get this gauge thing sorted out to my satisfaction I'll probably walk away. I simply cannot fathom spending $2000 or more to purchase and refurbish the original gauges. I'd just look for a car that's already got them and save $2K or more.

I get spending that kind of money on bodywork, engine rebuild, etc.

Not for gauges.
Darel Matthews

Darel, where does this price of $2k for a set of instruments come from?
Hugh Pite
H.D. Pite

$200-$500 each to purchase used ones (I'd need all four) plus the cost of refurbishment - I contacted Dave Braun and he was kind enough to tell me what he paid to have his gauges refurbed, which put that number well over the $2K range. I subtracted out a couple hundred bucks for selling the TR3 gauges but even they aren't worth a significant amount. Unless of course the speedo is actually an OD gauge, in which case there's probably lots of guys looking for that since an OD swap is popular.

Hugh, I posted that before I got your email...that's more like it, but still a pretty significant investment.

Thanks,
D
Darel Matthews

I went into the archive looking for "windscreen assembly" & this is the only thread that came up. I've just blown about 1/2 an hour reading this as I got hooked. I'd love to know how the story ends! So if you're still out there, are you a TD owner Darel? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Darel,
If you ever get back to this Forum, the New England MG "T" Register is having our G.O.F. in Strausburg Pa. starting on 09/02/15
http://www.nemgtr.org/events/events/event/82-gof-mk-98.html

STEVE & ANNIE WINCZE
CT MG CLUB
CHAIRPERSONS
BRITISH BY THE SEA GATHERING JUNE 7TH 2015
MARQUE OF THE YEAR;
EARLY TRIUMPHS
THE SIR JOHN BLACK ERA
E-MAIL: MGTD52@COMCAST.NET

Steve Wincze

Dang Peter! That was a most enjoyably wasted 1/2 hour :-). I feel like I've just read one of those thriller novels where the author died before finishing the book. Given my decision on the MGA (see other thread), I fear that Darel decided to invest his time and money elsewhere but, if not, I hope he'll let us know how the book ended. Jud

J K Chapin

Darel,
The BBS has been a little quiet this winter. At least that was my opinion. Your post was like a shot in the arm. People who have been suspiciously silent for weeks are back and interested. Please keep us informed as to your search and future progress. You will not find a better bunch of guys to advise you. Good luck.

Jim Haskins 1953 TD Clipper Blue by the way
J. M. Haskins

Hi Jim. Darel's last post was in 2012. I guess I should have said "reactivated thread". Like Jud I think he has perhaps decided not to proceed. I wonder what became of the TD he was interested in buying? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This thread was discussed between 13/04/2012 and 25/02/2015

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