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MG TD TF 1500 - New vs. old clutch parts photos & questions

Gents,
This is the followup on post from about a week ago trying to inspect my clutch parts from inspection port. Based on excellent feedback I've removed tranny and engine (fun!). I got my new parts from Moss and have a few more questions:

1. The old release bearing is obviously in need of replacement. No questions there.

2. Obviously I've gone this far so new disc will go in. Pressure plate is $210 bucks however. I don't see much difference between it and the old one (see pic below, new on left, old on right). I can return it to Moss but thinking maybe new one is somehow "matched" to new disc? Or maybe one can't go by "looks". Old one installed in 1963 26k miles ago. Should I use new or old pressure plate?

3. The 2 dowels that line the pressure plate up look ok. I did order new ones however. Can I assume old ones come out with a good pull with pliers or should I just leave old ones in?

4. Any tricks to remove the spring clips holding release bearing in?

Whew! That's enough for now, eh?

Thanks much,
Ed


efh Haskell

Spring clips just pop out sideways, use a screwdriver. No point whatsoever to remove the dowels from the flywheel unless they are messed up. With 26K miles (there is some wear after that many miles) and 47 year old springs, etc. I go with the new pressue plate. George
George Butz

George, here is new one installed today. Does the new right spring clip look like it's sticking out in space too far? The shaft end of the spring is a bit longer than old models. It seems tight but sure would make a mess if it fell off while running!! Stupidly I didn't take a photo of old springs installed:(


efh Haskell

And yet another question:
New release bearing on the left, old one on the right. New one is much "thicker", no? By this I mean the section that does NOT push against the pressure plate. (The graphite part I would expect thicker on the new one of course.) I realize a picture with them both facing the same direction would have been better but I already installed it:(

I have no way of testing this of course until it's driven and then it's too late, so this difference seems REAL important at this point!

Thanks, Ed


efh Haskell

Ed, re the throwout bearing. the important dimension is the distance between the centerline of the mounting lugs and the bearing face, not the thickness of the castings.

re the springs. They're fine.

hope this helps,
dave
Dave Braun

Dave, that occured to me after I posted first photo above. Photo below taken in the bell housing attempts to show centerline of mounting lugs lined up side by side. The new part appears to pertrude about 3/16" more towards pressure plate. Now this might be because the old part originally contained that much more graphite and it simply wore off over the years. Or it could be because Moss messed up the spec for the part and it's just too thick. I guess there're no way to know. What's your opinion? Does it matter? I'll obviously be readjusting my clutch linkage quite a bit anyway when it's all back together!

Really appreciate all the time you guys are giving this!!!!!!! Let me know if it gets abusive - really.

Ed



efh Haskell

Ed,

I liked the first picture better. So I marked it up. As long as 'A' is approx. equal to 'B' (within wear allowances) you are golden.

To be honest? I didn't replace my throwout bearing. It had enough life on it that I reinstalled it. GACK!

warmly,
dave


Dave Braun

Dave, ok here is the final photo. I promise! To me "A" is about equal to "B" assuming the old one is worn down about 1/16". Do you concur? (Please say yes so I can move on, and thanks for your cool graphic work!)
Ed


efh Haskell

Put it in and forget about it. If anything the newer casting is stronger because of the meat around the lugs. Just my opinion.
LaVerne Downey

I do concur with Dave and LaVerne and think it is OK. In the picutres, look at the relationship between the round part of the castings. The original has the round part starting almost completely in front of the "lugs", and the new one starts about the middle of them- much meatier as LaVerne says. The clips- the main thing is that the curved wings pop into the dimples in the back of the arm and hold the clip securely in. I wouldn't worry that one sticks out a tad further.
George Butz

I agree with LaVerne. Use the new one.

I heard a few 'stories' at the time about new throwout bearings so I used my old one. Since then, I've not heard anything, so I probably could have replaced it then.

I'm hoping some nice day I can relive the glory and pull my gearbox to put in a new throwout bearing...

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

I'm hoping some nice day I can relive the glory and pull my gearbox to put in a new throwout bearing...

Thats just sick and wrong Dave ...lol.
LaVerne Downey

Okay, the damn thing is back in! Exactly how "rough" should the flywheel face feel after using 220 on it by the way? It's smooth as glass now. The new clutch disk (flywheel side) is of course not smooth as glass.
efh Haskell

We were just scuffing not sanding Ed. The idea is just to remove any glaze that might have been on the surface. At a machine shop the idea to get a perfectly flat surface for best friction adheasion of the clutch AND a little light scuff cross swirl the machine finishes it with. If you see scratch marks, your good to go. From the center out would have been the best and not round and round. Clean off any residue with some Brake Clean and slap her together. Don't do it after you eat KFC. You don't want any oil or grease anywhere near the clutch lining or plate surface.
LaVerne Downey

Didn't I see a photo of the flywheel with the machining marks from the machine shop still clear? I wouldn't do any scuffing if that is the case.

Tom
t lange

This is it before final cleanup with brake cleaner. I vote it's "good to go"! Concurance?

And a chance to play with my new torque wrench that's on the way - oh boy! According to a list I got from one of you guys long ago that would be 19 LBFT, but what about the bell to engine bolts?

By the way, I did purchase a new bearing that you see in there but old one looks same to me. Looks like a MAJOR job to change it!


efh Haskell

Unless they have been helicoiled, the threads in the sump are aluminum, so I would just snug them down. They strip really easily. George
George Butz

George, your response brings up another oddity. 2 of the sump bolts have a spring of some sort inside the hole! The bolt screws into this spring. Humm...been wondering what gives there? Is that a sleezy way of making a bolt fit in a hole that is too big or something? (I can post a photo if needed).
efh Haskell

Ed - I think what you have is a pair of holes that have already had helicoils inserted, which provide better-than-new thread strength. The holes stripped before, and were fixed correctly. Don't worry about them.

But I would seriously consider replacing the pilot bearing(spigot bushing in some parlances). It's a bronze bushing and wear is not terribly visible without removing it. I know it's a pain, but worth it IMHO. Fill the cavity behind the bushing with grease, then the bushing, then hammer a tight dowel into the bushing. The grease will force the bushing out nicely. Or, you can carefully saw away at it with a hacksaw blade and chip out the remains.

I soak the new bushing in oil for a few days before I install it, to give it a chance to soak up whatever lubricant it will. May be unnecessary, but it makes me feel better.

Finally, a small point: the lock wire in the lower pair of bolts in your photo is not set right. If either of the bolts loosens it will loosen the connected bolt a bit. Not so for the upper wired set, which is correct - if one tries to loosen, the attached bolt will hold it in place. Now is the time to fix it, because a loose flywheel is not a pretty sight!

Sounds like you are making excellent progress - inspiring!

Tom
t lange

Tom,
Not sure I understand bushing removal? Does one remove the flywheel first?
"Fill the cavity behind the bushing with grease, then the bushing, then hammer a tight dowel into the bushing". Do you mean you actually insert your grease gun into the bushing? What lies behind the flywheel? Where does all that grease wind up? Maybe I'm misunderstanding?

Does bronze absort oil?

The logic of those safty wires I was not aware of. What exactly are they supposed to do?
Ed
efh Haskell

Ed: No need to remove the flywheel. The bushing is a press fit into the end of the crankshaft, and is impossible to remove because there is no through hole, and nothing to grab onto. But it can be pushed out the way it came, from the flywheel side, and filling the cavity and bushing with (relatively) non-compressable grease gives a solid hydraulic effect. Hammering a tight dowel into the bushing creates a ton of pressure in the cavity, and the only place for that pressure to go is by pushing the bushing out. It sounds more complicated than it really is. And then be sure and clean out all the grease before you put things back together.

I believe the bushing is an oil-impregnated bronze, where the pores actually soak up oil and hold it for longer lubrication. I always soak bushes in oil before I install them, in pedals, shafts, generators, starters, etc. Again, it makes me feel better.

The lockwire is there to prevent the flywheel bolts from loosening, with disastrous results. The lockwire is so aligned that the loosening of one bolt head tightens the other attached bolt head, and prevents the first one from loosening. You twist the wire around the top of one bolt head with the wire on the right, and around the bottom of the other bolt head. Look at the top two wires in your photo and imaging loosening the left hand bolt. You see that the way the wires are twisted will tighten the other bolt head, and not allow the first one to move. The other, lower pair of wires (assuming you havn't turned the engine since you sent the picture) don't work like that - as one bolt head loosens it is not held in place by the other bolt head, but would allow both bolts to loosen.

If you have a copy of Woody Wood's XPAG engine manual, there is a picture in the Addenda of how to properly run lockwire. But you have perfect examples of how, and how not to run it right there in front of you.

Keep asking questions (I don't want to overwhelm you)!

Tom
t lange

Ed: I should mention that another way to remove the pilot bushing is to screw into it a tightly-fitting tap, and to keep going until it bottoms, Then if you keep going, it will usually pull out the bushing. But that means you have to buy a tap the right size, whereas with the other method a dowel is usually all you need to scroungs.

Tom
t lange

Thanks Tom, I'll try the grease trick and will rewire the bottom bolt. Any special kind of wire or can I reuse what's there?
efh Haskell

I actually went to the local airport using airport transfers tunbridge wells and got a hunk of aircraft-grade SS lockwire given to me, which has lasted a few years. But I think any quality lockwire, probably fron an automotive supply, speed shop or machine shop would be fine. Do NOT use a hunk of miscellaneous hardware store wire you have lying around the workshop, because it will not be suitable.

Whoever did the lockwire before had the right pliers, etc. Hope this helps.

Tom
t lange

"...right pliers..." Eh oh, what are these?
efh Haskell

Locking pliers with a 'spinner' to twist the wire evenly. Harbor Freight. Worth having the right tool.

Tom
t lange

....and for the aircraft mechanics....

http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?PRODUCT_ID=11WS
gblawson(gordon)

Okay, found the wire spinning pliers at HF - cheap!
Is this link what you would call "safety wire"?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97773

Thanks guys again!
Ed
efh Haskell

Pliers ok..wire no way. Your looking for some stainless safety. Wouldn't trust any wire for anything that came from China. Their pipes ok.
LaVerne Downey

As always, LaVerne is spot on - see my above comment, "Do NOT use a miscellaneous hunk of hardware store wire you happen to have lying around the workshop, because it will not be suitable."

Tom
t lange

Okay you airplane guys, I found safety wire on Amazon. .028" or .032" is available. Since I'll probably never use it again in my life and they want $7 bucks to ship it, does anybody happen to know which diameter is used on the flywheel bolts on a '50 TD? (No, I don't have a wire gauge - yet.)

All kinds of cool videos on how to twist it as well. Oh boy, another skill to learn. When does it end?

Thanks,
Ed
efh Haskell

I know you have an airport down in Gunnison. Check the yellow pages for airplane services. Find one and give em a call. They will probably let you have a couple of feet for free. Throw in a beer or two and they might let you use their twister.

Give this place a call.

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/3941/Motorcycle-Dealer-Contact/Sun-Sports-Unlimited-Inc.aspx

Lots of motor cycles , well the older ones, have safety wire and a good shop will have a little do it yourself kit.
LaVerne Downey

Lonnie, take a look at this one from the archives. Bud
Bud Krueger

I took this pic when I did my clutch change a while back if it helps. Shows the amount of wear.

Matthew.


M Magilton

This thread was discussed between 12/04/2010 and 03/11/2015

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