MG-Cars.com
MG TD TF 1500 Oil pump question BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
MG-Cars.net
Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.
Recommendations
Parts
MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.
MG TD TF 1500 - Oil pump question
| Along with zero oil pressure I am dealing with, I notice "some" noticable wear on part 107 (Moss Cat and A-2 of Workshop Manual). Anyone know how this $20 part is fitted into block (screwed, pressed)? John, '52 TD/C |
| John Redman |
| John, if your talking about the driven gear shaft, it is pressed into place. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| Dear LaVerne, That is the puppy I mean. What is a good tool to remove the worn one? John |
| John Redman |
| You make a puller of sorts with a socket longer than the shaft that slips completely over the shaft, an 8mm x 1.0 bolt long enough to engage the threads in the shaft, and a washers/spacers. You have to fiddle with the socket lenght/spacers, etc., but just tighten the bolt and it pulls the shaft right out. Hope this makes sense. George |
| George Butz |
| John - George's solution is one that I used some years ago and it works well. Now that I have a slide hammer, I rigged up an attachment for a 8 X 1mm bolt to the slide hammer and pop the shaft out with that. A couple of good whacks with the slide hammer and the shaft is out. Cheers - Dave |
| David DuBois |
| OK, I used the LaVerne method and got it out but I really cannot Mike a difference, just feel it. How much play should be allowed between the driven gear and the shaft anyway? Anyone know? John |
| John Redman |
| John, that was George's method. Mine was the same but I used an impact gun to speed up the process. The wear will ussually occur on the inside of the gear as it is a softer bronze bushing. I can't quote the specs but for my own piece of mind I bought a rebuild kit so shaft a gear clearence are close. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| Slide hammers and impact wrenches seem fine for an engine that is out-of-body but not for where the rooms is far less than necessary to swing a matchstick much less a cat-o-nine. You should have seen the collection of washers and deep-wells. And skinned knuckles. John |
| John Redman |
| Nothing quite like seeing the red body fluid ooze thru grease covered hands. My hands usually look like I've been trying to give a cat a bath. Wife says I should wear gloves and I should but don't. The shaft probably could have been left in the block and the gear rebushed. If the bushing is worn I suspect that the teeth may be also and a new set of gears would be in order along with a fresh box of band aids. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| Because the wear on the shaft was less than one ten thousandth and the problem had been ZERO oil pressure and I could not get new shaft or bushings before the show on Saturday without paying an extra $40, I put everything back together - sort of. As of last night I could not push the oil pump back up the last inch and a quarter. I'm sure that I'll solve that this morning. Anyhow, I discovered plug 141 on A-2 of Workshop Manual was loose enough to bleed air (and lose suction, I supose) and now I hope that was the problem. I will revisit the oil pump before I take off for the summer, assuming I have sucess today. John |
| John Redman |
| Well, I just tested it with the starter motor, plugs removed and spun it for a minute and got zero oil pressure. This after packing the pump gears with Vasoline and priming everything in sight including oil pipe 139 and the valve cover off. I do not know what to do. John |
| John Redman |
| John, find an oil pressure gage known to be accurate. Hook it up and try again. Next remove the relief cap and check the ball and spring assembly , I don't remember the length the spring should be but can give that to you later. If still nothing, remove the end cap and check the float clearence between the gears and the cap with some plastigauge. Should be .002 to .003 if I remember correctly. If good there move to the pick up tube connection and check for joint leaks at the connection between the oil pan and the pick up tube. Next step would be to drop the pan and look the pick up over for obstructions, cracks including the bizzaro connection of the block to pan. LaVerne |
| LaVerne |
| John, what happened or did you do to the car when the pressure went away? oil change? Mechanical work? Any sudden, loud, knocking sounds? George |
| George Butz |
| Tomorrow I am going to point my suspicious eye at the oil pipe 139. I had it off to polish the copper and brass but not chrome plate. Much of what I have done to the motor compartment has been to do those things. That and remove the PINK paint that DPO had applied to most parts. I had already checked the pressure relief valve and the end clearance is factory minimum. There is no visible wear on the gears and the mesh with the camshaft drive is without wiggle. I don't doubt the gauge yet because no oil is squirting aroung the upper area with the valve cover removed. Your help is greatly appreciated. I so want to go to Rome on Saturday WITH the car. John |
| John Redman |
| Ok John, crack the fitting on the oil gauge line and turn her over. There is a likely hood that youv'e got some air trapped in the line and it's compressing without pushing the needle up. Also check that you didn't crimp the line at some point. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| John, I tried an entire Saturday to get oil pressure after my rebuild. I had to rotate my rear wheel (jack up only one side, or block the opposite rear) in reverse while feeding oil into the galley with the lower banjo bolt removed. Do it with the spark plugs out, and the gearbox in fourth. I had oil pressure after two attempts with this method. good luck, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| john, good idea about pulling the valve cover off. if there isn't oil spraying around there i agree you should look other places than the oil pressure gauge or oil pressure gauge line. did you try loosening the banjo at the bottom end of line 139 to see if oil is getting that far? has oil made it into the filter? are you drawing oil out of the pan? best of luck. please let us know what you have found when you solve the problem. tom |
| tm peterson |
| Well, the lower galleys are full and the void under the priming plug as well. I ran the left rear wheel in reverse with the tranny engaged in 4th gear. The oil pipe 139 is unobstructed though the upper banjo bolt has quite a smaller hole in its end than the lower. I am assuming that is OK. I took the tappet cover off so that I could observe the various operations. I have given the rear wheel about 30 revolutions in this process. God knows where the vasoline I filled the oil pump has now gone. BUUUUUUUUTTTTT, I just re-assembled and tested it and I STILL have no oil coming out of oil pipe 139. I left it disconnected at the top and wrapped it with a clean rolled up paper towel then cranked it over with the starter motor for over a minute. Nada. I guess that I take my Eagle Summit to the show tomorrow, for sure. An oil pump just came up on eBay today. John |
| John Redman |
| John, Since I can't see it, I'll ask a stupid question. Did you put the key back in the shaft? LaVerne |
| LaVerne |
| John Could you have possibly gotten the oil pan gasket on the wrong side? One has a hole for the oil pump, one does not. Also, if you do drop the pan, check the gasket on the oil pickup. If you have a leak there, you will draw air. One other question. When you removed the oil pump, did you pull the bypass ball seat, ball and spring out? (118-121 on external engine page of moss) I sympathize with you on this one. My rebuilt has had oil pump problems also. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| I never removed the circlip nor key so that is not the problem. I never dropped the pan either and I carefully checked the oil pressure relief valve several times. The only things that I took apart were those that DPO had painted pink and those I wished to either polish or chrome plate. The oil pan was one of those items painted pink but came off really easily because of the oil film on it and I prefer the natural aluminum look. Thanks for all the suggestions. John |
| John Redman |
| john, unless i am mistaken, bruce is taking about the emergency by-pass valve and spring in the block,not the pressure relief valve in the pump. if that is unseated you will never develop pressure. are you and bruce talking about the same thing when you say you have checked it several times? best of luck and please let us know wheat you find when you solve the problem. tom |
| tm peterson |
| Well, as to the emergency valve, I never disturbed that one (nor checked its operation either). John |
| John Redman |
| At the British car show Saturday, someone suggested that some oil passage or another might be clogged. Could the application of some 100 pound air help that? If so, where applied? Plug 38, by any chance? What would reach the suction side of the pump (without re-removing the pump I'm hoping)? John |
| John Redman |
| John I've been pretty much no help to this point but did you have good pressure before you did the clean up routine? I don't think you'll do any damage with the air. That glob of vasoline may very well be plugging up the works. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| I went ahead and put the air to plug 38, 149 and the hole at the lower end of where oil pipe 139 goes while variously letting the oil/air come out other places or be forced through the bearings. I then refilled the priming hole under plug 149 and turned both the hand crank (for the forward rotation) and the rear wheel backward in 4th (for the reverse rotation of the oil pump) while watching the open hole at 149 for any movement of oil. Nothing happened. Next I'll drop the pan. John |
| John Redman |
| john, was the oil pressure just low before you started working on the pump? is the pump turning? i guess it must be if the vaseline is gone. hmm...i made an incorrect statement in an earlier post. you should still have perssure if the emergency relief valve is open...you just won't have filtered oil. sorry about that. tom |
| tm peterson |
| john, there is no gasket between your pump body and pump cover, correct? my limited experience with this pump comes from my 1 car. the oil pressure was quite low before overhaul..the bearings were shot, bid end and main, and the resulting low oil flow to the rocker shaft made it look TERRIBLE, but the pump, although quite worn itself still put out a LOT of oil. i am very interested to hear what this is after you solve this. regards,tom |
| tm peterson |
| John, I admire the tenacity with which you are attacking your problem. My experience with turning the wheels backwards while in gear was to get the pump to suck oil from the galley feed at the lower banjo fitting (hole at 140 for the oil line to the head) down to the pickup, thus priming the pump. If you aren't feeding oil in the galley as you rotate the wheel (i.e. two person job) you may not get the prime you are looking for. Note, putting oil in at 149 or 38 DID NOT WORK FOR ME. If perchance you haven't tried it the way I'm describing, give it a go before you remove the sump. warmly, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Chapter 6 (I think). I just made an enema bag out ot a ziplock bag and some fittings and some vinyl hose. The tread/size is exactly the same as an electrical nipple you find in lamps and I had saved one. I filled the bag with half a quart of oil and hung it 2 feet over the car after connecting it to the lower rear oil galley hole usually serviced by oil pipe 139. I then commenced to rotate the rear wheel backwards some 30 to 40 revolutions. No oil left the enema bag. I then removed oil plug 149 and oil gushed out. I replaced that and then removed oil plug 38. Oil gushed out. I then turned the pump in the forward direction with the hand crank and no oil went to fill the bag. I am guessing that the pump is primed but plugged on the input side somehow. John |
| John Redman |
| >I am guessing that the pump is primed but plugged on the input side somehow. Things to check: 1. Oil pan gasket--is hole in gasket properly aligned with passage in oil pan and block. Are there any globs of sealant constricting this passage. If you use silicone sealant (I do), use a very thin even film. 2. Oil pickup--gaskets on pickup and pipe to pan gasket are OK. No cracks on pipe or pickup. Screen is clear. That's all I can think of right now. It will probably be obvious what the problem is as soon as you drop the oil pan. With the pan off, you can also rotate the crank, and observe the rotation of the oil pump drive gear. Hopefully, it isn't something nasty like a broken or chipped oil pump drive, which would also mess up the camshaft. Please check back and let us know what the problem and solution was. |
| Mark B. |
| Chapter 7. The oil that was in the bag eventually drained through the bearings back to the sump 'cause the oil level is now showing high. I did not buy that oil pump on eBay as, on close inspection, it did not appear to be a TD one. John |
| John Redman |
| I am not hopeful of finding a problem with the sump gasket. I never disturbed it and there was good pressure before. There are no chips on any of the gears and I could observe the rotation of the oil pump gear as I raised it into engagement with the cam shaft gear. With the tappet cover off, I can observe the rotation of the cam shaft. My wife is away tomorrow visiting her sister for a week and I will tear into it again then. I have taken pictures of the "pressurization" bag in place and laid out on the floor, if anyone wants to see it. |
| John Redman |
| John, Since you never removed the pan, and it was covered with pink paint, could there now be a suction leak at the sump/block joint? Maybe the pink paint was sealing that area. Try snugging the sump bolts. Likewise, check the either two or four bolt pick-up mounting area on the sump- make sure they are snug, and there should be a screw in the middle of the area. If there are even small leaks there it will suck air and not suck up the oil. Do you have the late (horizontal cannister) or early (external pipes) filter? George |
| George Butz |
| Dear George, All further work awaits my wife's departure but I am puzzled by any thought that the space over the oil in the sump is under any serious pressure as it is vented to atmosphere through the breather pipe and the valve cover, no? Anyhow, removing the paint was scarcely a scraping job. The liberal oil film had softened it till I only had to peel it away. I have the later oil assembly (Aug 24, 1952) which I have converted with the spin on oil filter adapter from Moss. John |
| John Redman |
| John, I am talking about the joint of the sump/block/pickup suction area, where the oil from the pickup flows through the pickup flange, then into the passageway in the pan, through the pan gasket, into the block, then into the oil pump. No pressure, but this entire "tube"has to be air-tight for pump to pick up oil. George |
| George Butz |
| George, As that junction is entirely inside, what is vital to that seems to be the 2 longish safety wired 11 mm bolts holding the pickup assy to the pan from the outside and the 2 closest bolts holding the pan to the block plus the plug in between the 2 longish ones. None of these have been disturbed and, in fact, are tight. I AM missing a pan bolt but it is not near this. John |
| John Redman |
| With talk of enema bags and hoses I'm starting to get scared. I haven't heard anybody talk about the role of the filter in this Dahli lama. Any thoughts? LaVerne |
| LaVerne |
| LaVerne has a thought. What oil filter system are you running John? Late model,early, screw on? Could there be an issue with oil not getting through the filter? |
| Bruce Cunha |
| As I said earlier, I have the later system (built 24 Aug, '52) and I have introduced the Moss update spin-on filter. I really like the "pressurization" system I made. It is absolutely ideal for the purpose, better than vasoline, I think, and cost pennies to make. Pictures supplied on request. With the fact that oil came back through the filter and gush out of plugs 149 and 38 removes the filter from the possible problem list, right? John |
| John Redman |
| John Know this is frustrating (been there with my current engine)but if the pump is turning, there can only be a couple of reasons the pump is not pumping, One is an air leak, Two is a blockage. I don't have the later oil filter but It could be that plug 38 is on the output side of the oil filter, if so, this would show oil if you put oil in at the point where the valve train pipe comes off the block. If you pull plug 141 do you get oil out of this? Lets go back to the beginning. What was the reason you rebuild the oil pump? Did it loose pressure prior to the rebuild? What did you change or add. You said you put the moss spin on oil filter? Is that after the rebuild or was it on and working prior to the rebuild? If after, and you have the old one, I would put it back on and see if you get pressure. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Hope you get this figured out soon John. I'm just starting to assemble my engine and the first thing in was the rebuilt pump. On and off I don't know how many times with a tap tap to get the Idler shaft lined for radial gear clearence and a drag free rotation. Next in with the new camshaft. Eeverything still looking good. Bolted down the pump cap and put the bolt in the end to turn the cam. Turned the cam and oh ***t the pump doesn't turn and the cam moves to the rear of the block and pops out the freeze plug. Get out the parts book and now I see why. No circlip on the cam, Duh. The cam I pulled out did not have one so I didn't give it a thought. Now I'll need to get the plug back in, find a circlip and check the cap clearence again. This is gonna take longer than I'd hoped. I agree with Bruce. If the pump was doing its job before the work you did, I'd try and return it to that state to see if it might again. Pictures might help but as you already know I'm no expert here. Might see something or not. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| As I said earlier, I did NOT rebuild this pump, only removed it to repaint it MG engine red and then replaced it. I can't think of anything I did wrong which is why I am going to remove it in the morning. John |
| John Redman |
| Sorry John I was unclear on what you did to the pump. It was working fine, you pulled it to repaint it and now it is not working. Ok. When you pull it again check the rear gasket (oil pump to block)it may be blocking a passage if not on correctly. Or if it is missing, it may be pulling air at this point. Laverne: I did the same with the engine in the car. As soon as I heard that stupid pt-ting of the plug hitting the floor, I realized I forgot the circlip. Had to pull the whole engine to put that back in. Do be very gentile when you first go to turn the engine with the cam and pump. If you get any binding on the pump/cam gear, you will destroy the pump gear and can damage the cam. (yes, I did that also) |
| Bruce Cunha |
| John, I'm hoping you find that perhaps the gasket is on wrong and bloking the oil way. When you pulled the pump for paint did you remove the idler shaft at that time or did that happen after the no pressure situation? Would be much worse if as Bruce indicated with the gearing. Here's to hoping its a simple, easy and inexpensive fix. LaVerne |
| LaVerne |
| OK, I just finished re-removing it. I (temporarily, I hope) lost the ball from the pressure relief valve(It is on the basement floor close the the workbench) and I blew out all the vasoline and checked the operation of the other relief valves. I don't have a feeler guage thin enough to check the gap between the drive gear and the wall of the pump but the end clearance is exactly .00016. I took apart the spin-on adapter and I'll do more tomorrow after I read your input. Thanks. John |
| John Redman |
| I assume the drive gear on the pump and the camshaft both look fine? LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| Dear LaVerne, They do, they do. I am figuring that the path (of oil) is from the sump thru the edge of the pan to the block down thru the body of the pump over across past plug 38 to the outside of the filter, in thru the filter back into the gears of the pump and then out to the galleries. Is that right? John |
| John Redman |
| John Unsure on the later filter but on the earlier, it goes from the pan to through the pump to the center of the filter (inside to outside) and then to the block. I belive in yours it goes the same (inside to outside of the filter) but the plug 38 is the passage back to the block over the top of the pump. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| John, with the info you have given us I'd now have to guess that the filter is plugged with the vasoline. This is a case where a cheaper filter would be better. Less filtration and no anti drain back valve. If your using a quality filter (Wix, Napa) with an anti drain back valve then you won't be able to push the oil back down thru the system to prime the pump and if the filter is plugged up the pump is not going to prime trying to over come the pressure of the filter. Lesser filters with out the drain back valve(Fram, Penzoil will allow the oil to drain back down to the sump. I'd put the pump back on and replace the filter and probably skip the vasoline in favor of something like an assembly lube for pump gear packing material and give it another shot. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
| I don't think you need to pack the oil pump at all. You can just prime it with oil. There may be some merit to doing that if there's a long time between the time the pump is built and the first time it is spun, but I think it causes more problems than it solves. Especially for the later pumps, which have a plug which makes it easy to prime the pump. FWIW, It took about 25 seconds of spinning with the starter (spark plugs removed) the first time I spun up the engine on my TF before I got oil pressure. That was a lot longer delay than I was comfortable with. I assume that most of that time was the pump filling the canister style oil filter. I just about gave up before I saw the needle move. Luckily, there was plenty of assembly lube in the engine. Now, of course, there's no noticeable delay between starting and oil pressure. |
| Mark B. |
| LaVerne may be on to something. A good anti-drainback valve in the filter would keep any oil from reverse-flowing into the pump to prime it. Maybe try a cheap filter, or remove/cut/poke holes in the anit-drainback valve in the filter (the rubber under the circle of holes). At some point, I had a really hard time priming a pump on a horizontal filter TD. George |
| George Butz |
| After priming using the upper banjo bolt and soaking the filter first... I backed off the filter housing and actually heard a little "psst" from built up air caught in there...as soon as I heard it I did it up again.... don't know if that helped get the pressure I had, but it certainly purged any air in the housing. |
| gordon lawson - TD 27667 |
| Gordon, somewhere in this record length thread it says he has a spin-on adaptor, so loosening it won't help. Still think LaVerne may have hit on the problem. George |
| George Butz |
| Oops... your right...must get one of those 'new fangled' things one of these days..... |
| gordon lawson - TD 27667 |
| Gordon, Your comment about loosening the filter reminded me of my '67 Dodge Charger 383ci in high school. Every once in a while the engine would come up on oil pressure. I would back off the spin on filter and restart, and the pressure would be fine. I probably had to do that about once every three months or so. warmly, dave |
| Dave Braun |
| Well, everyone, I have generated myself a new problem while still being unsure of the old one. That little ball from the pressure relief valve is eluding me. The filter I have is a FRAM, so, I don't have the internal valve problem. The pump is back together and I drilled all the pump bolts for safety wire. I did this because both of the recent tear-downs have revealed a loose bolt when I was sure that they were all tight on assembly. I will daisy chain the six long bolts and figure 8 the two short ones, that is, as soon as I find a supply of stainless steel safety wire. It is a loooong way/time from the FBM submarines I served on. I fully disassembled everything and blew out all passages. 100 # air. I heard the oil in the pan bubble when I hit that passage. I noticed that the two cam bearing holding bolts are drilled for safety wire but no obvious place to attach the fixed end to. John |
| John Redman |
| John, one thing that helps me with lost metal items is a magnet. I have some fairly powerful magnets that are made for holding welding work, and I just sweep the likely area and then examining the magnet. Usually some metal shavings, various screws, and al sorts of other garbage is stuck to the magnet. Once I dropped a valve collet, and searched for a half hour right where I heard it drop. I dragged the magnet over the area, and when I picked up the magnet, the collet was stuck to it. I don't know where it came from, because I had very closely visually inspected the area just before it appeared on the magnet. Hopefully, if you drag your magnet around the floor, and reach into the areas under the workbench, etc., the ball will be stuck to it when you pick it up. |
| Mark B. |
| John... you've got to solve this... scrolling down 50+ posts is just takin too long...wish I had a spare pump to send you !!! |
| gordon lawson - TD 27667 |
| Well??? |
| LED DOWNEY |
| Can't let this thread die without resolution... ???? Scott |
| Scott |
| Feeling toooo stupid to finish this off without your unfortunate prod, I do not have happy news. I do NOT have oil pressure and it makes bad noises when I turn it over with the starter motor trying to develop it. Only thing left for me to do is take it to someone with talent, experience and does not own a boat (or airplane). John |
| John Redman |
| I'm starting to get a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach. |
| LaVerne |
| John Sorry to hear that this has not resolved. Given that all you did was pull the oil pump, it is a mystery why you cannot get the pump to go. Wish I were closer, it would be an interesting one to put heads together on. One more question, did you take the gears out when you pulled the pump? Any potential the keeper key on the pump gears may have come out? This would stop the pump from pumping, but the shaft would still turn. |
| Bruce Cunha |
This thread was discussed between 09/05/2006 and 02/06/2006
MG TD TF 1500 index
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.