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MG TD TF 1500 - Oil Thrower

Lots of questions here.
Since I have the bottom end apart I am replacing the front seal.
Upon disassembly I found 2 oil throwers.
The outer one is cracked as shown, and I assume it was put there as a washer/shim???
How shall I determine what if any washers are required?
The inner one seems to be a little stuck in a groove. I don't see a groove in the diagram in the WSM so I assume it was worn in by the oil thrower.
How would that be possible if everything rotates together?
Shall I leave it alone or force it out and replace it with the one I have on order?
Thanks,
Mort

Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort, with your disappointing findings thus far, I would be thinking very seriously of rechecking all the engine work done by previous owners. You have progressed this far, so it is better to correct any more discrepancies now rather than after some more catastrophic mishap at a later time.
Jim Merz

Mort,

Didn't you have trouble with a pulley at one time? If so, perhaps the loose pulley is the source of the cracked oil slinger. Am I remembering correctly?

Jim
J E Carroll

Jim Merz,
I have checked everything I can short of removing and disassembling the engine. I've dropped the bearing plates and they look perfect. No scratches or pits, well lubricated, nice and shiny. The bolts were not over torqued. All bearing surfaces that I can see are good. The cam shows virtually no wear. I don't know when the engine was rebuilt but it can not be too long ago. I have been driving it for 3 years and sometimes hard on the highways. I've put maybe 4,000 miles on the engine.

Jim Carroll,
Yes you remember correctly. I got the car with a Judson supercharger and modified pulley for it. They used the wrong pulley. If I remember correctly they used a 1" ID pulley on a 25mm shaft. The looseness almost destroyed the key and gouged a chunk out of the keyway. If you look closely at the picture you can see the gouge. I switched to the Moss supercharger with the correct size pulley. I used a Loctite product that will fill some minor gaps. In spite of looking ugly, the assembly was nice and tight. I put about a 1,000 miles on it since then and it is running fine. I will reproduce that when I put it together.

My question now is the groove in the cam shaft and the proper fitting of the oil thrower.

Thanks,
Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort repair the groove in the crankshaft at first.
Take the key out, clean the groove very good/ repair with jb weld to avoid any side play.then fit new oil slinger. Others could have better ideas perhaps. Also check the groove size in the pulley.

Gerard
Gerard Hengeveld

As I see it in the exploded view, when you tighten the crankshaft bolt (433-450) it drives the pulley against the oil thrower. If the bolt was to bottom out before the pulley was tight you could add washers as required (item number 48 with no part number). If the oil thrower is locked in place between the pulley and the sprocket I see no harm in leaving that worn in groove alone.
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort, the purpose of the washers is to locate the notches for the hand crank. There was a thread on this in the not distant past.
IMHO, you should get that broken piece out of there. Bud
Bud Krueger

mort, in regard to the groove...once you have removed everything to get a clear look at the groove to evaluate it, if it were mine, i would give this a little consideration...


stress concentration [′stres ‚kän·sən‚trā·shən]
(mechanics)

a.k.a. "stress riser"

A condition in which a stress distribution has high localized stresses; usually induced by an abrupt change in the shape of a member; in the vicinity of notches, holes, changes in diameter of a shaft, and so forth, maximum stress is several times greater than where there is no geometrical discontinuity.

regards, tom
tom peterson

Mort,
The groove in the crankshaft is not a fault. It was machined in the factory and is in fact an undercut. If there is no room for a radius then an undercut is made which stops a crack developing from a sharp corner. I checked two crankshaft I have and they both have this undercut. The next increase in diameter where the sprocket is mounted does have a radius. Illustration A3 (page A6) of the Workshop Manual shows this area in section in detail.

The washer is identified as an oil thrower in the WM (page A22 part number 24) which tries to get as much oil as possible away from the front seal.

The oil slinger is probably held in the groove by a build up of gunk. It should come free with a bit of petrol an a toothbrush to clean the area up.
Max Irvine

Mort,

Perhaps the slinger is stuck in place by the locktite you used to secure the pulley. Speaking of locktite, I'm glad to see that it worked out for you; it's great stuff. Be sure to clean off all the old stuff before doing it again.

Have you had the fender repaired?

I hope you you are back on the road soon, it seems other things breaking are conspiring to keep me from working on my project. Work seems to get in the way as well.

Jim
J E Carroll

Jim. Yes I agree with you. Work is a nuisencence I am glad I am finished with that.
regards
Thoralf. Norway TD 4490
OAP.
Thoralf Sorensen (TD4490)

Jim, as the late great Maynard G. Krebbs said "WORK is a four letter word"
Tom Maine

Max, Thank you. You got it just right. It took two pair of reading glasses for me to see the groove in that illustration and on the car. Now I feel much better.

The old slinger is off and I am waiting for the new one to arrive.

Jim,
I got replacement fender and will be picking it up from the painter on Wednesday.

Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

mort,very good news on the crank.
where did you source the front fender? DPO was dinged in the front so the front valance was repaired as was the left front fender...more bondo than english wheel and hammer and dolly however. regards, tom
tom peterson

Tom,
I mentioned it here on the BBS and Tom Lange gave me a lead. It seems a vintage racer on Long Island, NY had purchased a car and did not need the fenders. I made contact and drove 2 hours to look at them. They were fine and I purchased the right fender. A very nice nice fellow.
If anyone needs a left he had one at the time.
Thanks again to Tom Lange.
Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

I believe I see a discrepancy in the WSM.

Figure A.3 shows the dished face of the oil thrower facing away from the engine.

Section A.19 says it should face toward the engine.

I think it should face toward the engine for two reasons:
1. It makes sense.
2. The DPO had it the other way.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Mort

Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Mort,
The text is ambiguous. It should say either concave or convex side.

I checked two different publications of mgb manual and they both say that the concave side of the washer should be to the front. I also checked an Austin Healey manual which said the convex side should be against the sprocket.

From all this I am sure illustration A.3 is correct.
Max Irvine

OK, I'm lost. In figure A.3 is the engine to the right as we see the image? I don't see anything labeled "oil slinger." Is there an oil slinger in the picture? I hope I don't have to get this deep into my engine but just in case...

BTW, Mort, thanks for making each of your questions a separate thread. I'm following this with great interest if (when?) I have to follow in your footsteps this will make it easier to find stuff.

jud
J K Chapin

Jud,

I believe the "oil slinger" is the concave washer shown just behind the chain cover/sump and just in front of the timing chain gear. It's the piece that appears dark and leaning slightly toward the left of the photo.
Gene Gillam

Jud,
The engine is to the right. Starting on the left of the figure you see a cross section of the pulley and fan belt. Next is the timing chain cover. You can see the little pointer for timing the engine. The cover contains the seal. The next major object is the timing chain sprocket and then the engine.
Between the timing chain cover and the sprocket is the oil slinger with its concave side facing away from the engine.

Per Max the figure is correct and the text ambiguous. I agree that the text is poor. It refers to the dished face but is that the concave or convex face?

I now see that the PO got it right. But still don't see why he had two of them and how the front one got cracked.


Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

I've been following this thread with great interest because an engine rebuild is the next thing on my to-do list. I don't know which is the correct way to face the thrower, but I looked up "dished" in a couple of dictionaries and it means concave, which gives credence to Mort's original suggestion that Fig. A3 is wrong. I wonder, though, just how much difference it makes which way it faces.

Joe
J.W. Olson

Gene and Mort: Thanks.
Jud
J K Chapin

Mort, could the PO have been trying to take up some of the fore and aft travel of the crankshaft with the extra washer? Was the inside of the timing chain cover/sump worn where the washer may have rubbed on it?
Gene Gillam

Gene,
It's hard to know what the PO did. Remember when they put the Judson on they used a 1" ID pulley on a 25 mm crank shaft. That caused all sorts of problems. The pulley fit very loose on the shaft. I don't have it anymore so I don't know if there was a gap between the end of the pulley and a single slinger.
I did a dry fit with the new pulley and no slinger and the nut draws the pulley right up to the sprocket. I just got the new slinger in the mail today and when I reassemble it there will be no gaps with just the one new slinger.

When I sold the Judson and all the peripherals, I told the buyer about the misfit. He will probably replace the pulley.

There are no wear marks in the cases from the old slinger(s).

Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

I'm restarting this thread to ask for a definitive answer: should the oil thrower have the concave face facing forward, or back towards the engine?
Just need to make certain before replacing timing cover...
thx in advance...
Geoffrey M Baker

Use the larger one from ASL, Moss does not offer the larger, updated one.
Len Fanelli

Geoff, concave faces forward.
Richard Cameron

This thread was discussed between 16/06/2013 and 28/08/2015

MG TD TF 1500 index

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