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MG TD TF 1500 - OK reality check

Hello Christopher - I moved this over from the
RAH Russ

Sorry, for some reason this didn't go thru complete. I'll re-submit it again. Russ
RAH Russ

OK. Reality Check.

Displayed my car at 4 concours this year. Did not enter purposefully in 2 cases and was denied in the other 2 because I had won previously.

So I used the opportunity to causally talk to judges (and of course the public). In at least two cases judges asked me questions about what they saw on various cars as being correct or not, but I did not pro offer any information or guidance.

Admittedly the judges have no clue what is right or wrong on any of these cars unless they get lucky (or unlucky for the car owner) and come across a model they are really familiar with. They are working under gross assumptions and knowledge (like basic differences between a TC, TD and TF for example). Things like what is correct on a TF 1500 versus 1250? Not going to happen. Correct color of your sidescreens? No. Number of pleats on your seats? No again.

I was shocked by cars that won significant positions and others that did not qualify for placement until I really figured out what was going on.

Basically they look for quality, reasonable authentic characteristics, appearance, attention to detail and just compare subjective qualities from one car to another. Sometimes when they bounce from one car to another its to just convince themselves why they thought one car looked better than another. Once a judge told me that my car won over another because it was shinier! Let me tell you that part was moot. The other car was a disaster from an originality perspective but that never came into play.

So while I am the biggest advocate of correctness, this is a personal goal, and one I am willing to share with anyone. But the average judge and buyer or admirer is clueless and probably does not care.
Christopher Couper

Chris:
Amen. couldn't have said it better.
Brian W.
ZBMan

Hi Chris,

Realising that Concours is not for everyone can be a key here.However,for those that are keen like you and many others,the acquisition of knowledgeable Judges in
major events certainly can be an issue.

One of the problems,even in National events,is that in many competitions, a Judge sensibly may not be appointed to a particular Class Judging Panel if they own and/or restored a car in that Class.Unfortunately often those with the greatest knowledge and experience on originality points have their cars entered in the event!

You are right about the shiney and pretty only cars getting 'the nod'. These factors should only be part of the equation in the final analysis if competent Judging applies.I remember being at a Concours event some years ago where the Judges gave top points when considering the interior of a TF with 'new lovely,black PLASTIC instrument knobs with Arctic white lettering' together with white leather upholstery! Another TF alongside this TF,had the brilliantly refurbished,original knobs with excellent lettering but was given far less a score in this area. And so on it goes.......

My feeling is that,for Concours,at least 50% of the marking should be apportioned to originality.

I guess,at the end of the day,you really do the car for yourself!

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").



R GRANTHAM

Chris... I posted this in the TABC forum during a discussion on using a combo TD gauge in a TC: " As far as originality goes, probably less than 98% of people looking at the car actually look at the gauges and of the 2% that look at them, probably less than 0.01% would recognize that the dual gauge wasn't original. If you broke that 0.01% down, half would probably want to know if it was an easy modification :D"

Usability trumps originality.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Well rebuilt,well restored whilst considering originalty,
gains reliable useability.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
R GRANTHAM

That's why I don't restore cars hoping for awards anymore, my own enjoyment is the thing. Trying to please judges is fraught with disappointment.

I was an AACA judge back in the 80's. Never again.

...
MAndrus

Hi Chris -

I think the fundamental issue is the lack of generally recognized concours standards for the MGT Series. If the MG Car Club and the New England MGT Register would draft, submit for review and comment, revise, and publish a guide for concours restorations, this would be the best first effort to address your observations.

How can we expect judges at events held by the AACA or other organizations (let alone our own GOFs and MG gatherings) to hold legitimate concours judging if there is no commonly understood standard?

The Austin-Healey Club of America has made a good effort in this direction and offers concours standards/guidelines for members. These can be purchased and used when restoring a vehicle. Are they accurate? I am sure there will always be points of disagreement. Is it a step in the right direction? Absolutely!

I think the recently developed "Survivor Challenges" organized by the NEMGTR reflect a recognition that we had better document the details found on the few remaining original/unrestored cars - before they vanish. Your excellent websites also contribute to this effort.

The main initial concern is - what to consult when judging a vehicle? If we at least develop a comprehensive, instructive guide for owners - this would go a long way to addressing the need.

I enjoy the restoration process and especially enjoy restoring original detail features. To me - the sum benefit of the hundreds of small details exceeds the plus/minus impact of the individual detail questions. The overall car just takes on a different "feel" when one follows the period decisions that were made during production. This is not fun for everyone - but for those that favor body color piping over contrast piping, dull finish coats over highly reflective surfaces, proper fasteners over modern replacements, and painted wire wheels over chrome, - the end product really shows the personality of the cars and highlights the various production decisions that were made by the factory. Why did MG switch to Rexine covered dash panels after having used nice wood veneers in earlier T- Series cars? It was less expensive! I hope we can move towards a guide and better judging. Best regards!
DLD

Been there w/concours, just not fun. The judges questioned the white felt in the tool box, color of grill slats, etc. But they missed the Seabrook wooden dash! Best to show it and watch people smile! George
George Butz

I'm with George. If I ever see a judge walk up to my car with a color chip book and leather swatches, I'm in the wrong place.
MAndrus

Well said DLD. This custodian agrees totally! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

DLD,

Like your constructive comments.Long live TDs and TFs.

Cheers
Rob Grantham

R GRANTHAM

Each competition without the possibilty to measure time, weight and so on is a mess. The suggestions DLD made will bring it on the right line - but it will never be righteous.

So you have to play the role of a gladiator with pain, equanimity and in case of winning with proudness ;-).

If you want to have other rules - start racing!

Bela

To All:

Agreed!! Some of the judging make one wonder. Yes a fully restored car is a beautiful sight when the details are employed. Numbers matching, correct materials (leather vs. plastic, etc) paint color.

Next... Original unrestored. These cars are only original once!! Enjoy what is left of the patina of the paint, upholstery, gauges, steering wheel. I'm sure there not many of those left. These cars deserve recognition as well.

By the same token, you can't repaint the Mona Lisa and call it original.

When entering an event, I post a sign on my windshield that reads:

"Display Only - Do Not Judge"

I have no interest in trophies, plaques, citations. It's the cars, the people, and never ending quest for parts.


Cheers
Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

DLD: I agree with your statements as far as pure model classes go. But some of the problem also lies when cars of different make and models are mixed, which is the case for most concours in the US.

It would necessitate that all the cars within the class have some sort of published standard to be fair. And think of the work the judges would have to do before hand on reading up on each car registered in their class. I suspect you would have even less judges than today, which I understand is starting to become a challenge.

And I was at one show where there was a semi production car in the class. It was even displayed by the manufacture (it did not place because it was not of sufficient quality per the above comments), but I am pretty sure it was original, but only the person displaying it would know. :-)

Maybe if there was a standard it would keep many who claim they have an original restoration because they used such and such a book, or consulted a certain well known person, all of which were wrong, in the minority.

In the end of the day pictures of unrestored cars is really the only solid evidence we have. This is why I am so committed to obtaining and posting as many pictures of unrestored cars as I can. And you need a number of pictures from different cars to really establish a solid pattern of evidence. What I have put in the lists of finishes and details I try to validate with pictures (note the little camera icon in the Details page for example).

And then having some grey area allows us all to post on forums and debate features at various meetups and shows, so we don't want absolute I guess :-)
Christopher Couper

Be careful what you wish for...

The Jaguar clubs are very concours-driven. The JCNA publishes judging manuals, including "standards" for some models. Unfortunately, this means that you might be penalized for items on your car that might be original, but are not recognized as "standard." Like MGs, there were many running changes on the assembly line that might or might not have been documented very well. The result is you have restorers building to the standard (regardless of whether that was how the car was built) and you have owners that are upset at not winning against those cars when their car has original elements or colors that aren't recognized.

For example, there was a huge debate for some time about whether the prop rod for the bonnet on a XK120 should be gray or black. Again, like our MGs, I'm sure it was whatever color the supplier painted it that week and depended upon which one got grabbed out of the parts bin for that car.

Personally, I've always liked the fact that MG clubs and shows haven't gone that way. Most are popular vote and aren't really judged at all. I think that leaves room for some creativity in restoring the car to your taste, though others may not recognize it as according to theirs. I get enough stress at my job, I want my hobbies to be for relaxing.
David Littlefield

The year I finished the restoration of TD 28929 I entered it in a large, well known local British car show. I was told that the quality of the restoration was such that the car should be in the Concours competition. The following year, I paid the big $$ and entered its in the Concourse competition.
A group of judges approached me with big smiles, and complemented me on the car. The chief judge asked me who restored the car. I said I did. He said, um, no, who painted the car? I said I did. He said no, you don't understand, who physically did all the work on the car. I smiled and said I did. I did everything. I have all the work of the restoration and the history of the car documented here in this binder, including pictures throughout the restoration. He said oh, I see, turned to the group of judges and said "let's move on." They never returned to my car, and it did not receive any recognition.
The car that did win was restored by a well known auto restorer. The car was a nice car, but far from correct. It was at this point that I decided I was done with any form of competitive judging.

David
D. Sander

David: To go one step further. I have seen people argue with judges on why their car is so great. What people were these? The actual party that restored the car versus the poor chump that paid them the money for the restoration and entered the car in the show expecting (guaranteeing?) them a place. Plus it pumps up their business to have these records from cars they restored so they have evidence for other people who also want to get trophy's. It's there livelihood so they act a bit different than you or I would.

Very few of these people are really true MG Purists who will keep the car long after show season is over and the gleam of their eye has been caught by the attention of another car.

Having said that I truly believe anyone who has really done a great job of restoring their car should enter a car show for the recognition. Just being accepted is a great honor for some shows. And the accolades you get from the public are much better than the ribbon or plaques you might take home. I have boxes of that stuff and none of it see's the light of day. Just don't worry about what he judges think. For all the car shows I have entered I can truly say my car was only judged by ONE person correctly.
Christopher Couper

David:

My hat is off to you for rolling up your sleeves, getting dirty and enduring the rigors of restoration. It's people such as yourself should be the ones doing the judging.

Again, I appreciate restored cars, as well as original, and barn finds.
Watching programs on TV and seeing some 25 year old test driving a 1940's car and commenting about the lack of handling prowess, makes me choke. This kid can' t spell carburetor let alone know what one is. Probably never saw a king pin, or knows what a vacuum shift is. Yet he is on TV evaluating a classic car.

Again, David, congratulations on a job well done.

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

When my MGB GT was newly restored, I was talked into entering it into the concourse at the Gatlinburg MG gathering. The one that includes all makes of MG.

The judges appropriately noted that my spare did not match the brand of my other tires but they also listed my rear view mirror as being incorrect for my year of car and the fan was from a newer model and not the three blade that it should have had.

My headliner is original and when I removed the mirror, there is no other mark on the headliner indicating the earlier mirror was ever on the car. I can't say the fan was not changed, but my car is about 150 from the end of the MK I models and as we all know, issues with end of production cars are discussions we have had.

So what is original on our LBC's will always be a bit contentious. That also was my last concourse.
Bruce TD4139 Cunha

Politics often enter the equation, as D Sander's pointed out. The questions of who did work on the car by the judges was inappropriate, and should have been referred to the Head Judge. I'm no snitch, but maybe it would be appropriate amongst certain people who denigrate events like this by getting so "special interest" prejudiced. If those judges were (personally) interested in who did what on a particular car) they should have asked after the judging. Slightly aside, I know of a certain specialist who does resto in a certain area of high end cars (not just high end) and he is often asked to settle questions, or to judge on that specific area at judged shows. If a car he worked on is entered, he tells them that "one of the cars" in that group "belongs to a friend," so he cannot judge. They know that means one or more of the cars has his work on it. By being vague about it, yet up front, he is more respected (as a judge) by the other owner's, and by the judges. Respected by those who think favoritism has no place there. Also, he is a good candidate to be among the right blend of backgrounds for a Judge, as he has more customers than he can ever handle, for his area of expertise, and has zero interest in drumming up business for himself. He refuses to become involved in any events he believes favoritism exists for the wrong reason.

The "Preservation Class" has taken too long to become a part of Concours events, but it is making some inroads. https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/Articles/2009/06/02/Preservation-Class-Cars

Everybody with a Concours level restoration should encourage events to include this category, and support having the most knowledgeable outside Judges available to be brought in from outside their normal pool of Judges. How else are people paying huge amounts to have their car restored ever going to know if their car is truly correct, or just what the "old boys network" tells them is correct? Some wiggle room should be allowed (I think) for various non-originality, within the "preservation" aspect. That is, allowance for common, period correct, minor alterations like "better wheels" for example, if that was a common change people made to a specific model. In other words, that "correct" modification should carry the same weight as actually correct wheels.

Preservation, as a class, could wind up being just another "politically correct special interest." For instance, if a time capsule from the past popped up indicating all the over restored Concours winners were winning with some element that was not correct, the PC (politically correct) judges would just say it was wrong on the Preservation class time capsule car. Outside judges not involved in the special interest PC drama could evaluate the car on "their" terms, oblivious as to what the regular Concours people are looking for.

Of course there are many events where special interests and "PC" (within the Concours arena)take a back seat to good, honest, well researched judging.
D mckellar

I enjoy going to and being in a couple of shows a year just for the opportunity to reconnect and socialize with car people I rarely otherwise see. What I look for during the show are kids from about 6 to 14 who look at my car twice. If they're smiling and seem reasonably well behaved I stop them and ask if they'd like to get in the car. Almost always (hasn't failed yet) faces of both the kids and the parents light up to rival the sun. Cameras come out and everyone seems happy. Maybe one of those kids will buy and maintain my TD when I'm gone to Abingdon in the sky. Jud
J. K. Chapin

Jud: That's wonderful. In most shows people are chased away if they get within 6 inches of a car.

But I have seen the opposite too. What's with the scantily clad women who think they need to duplicate a Farrah Fawcett poster? Usually happens to muscle cars and Ferrari's. I have seen plenty of them climb on fenders or drape themselves over hoods while their boyfriends snap a picture. Some of these cars have no metal and dent real easily.
Christopher Couper

Bring on the scantily clad women! I don't see any of those at our GOFs down here!

I need to attend more car displays!
DLD

Given the demographic at the MG meets I attend, I'm not so sure that "scantily clad women" is something to wish for.
David Littlefield

I agree David - be careful what you wish for !
DLD

I agree with much of what has been said here. I know its the cars that are being judged, but it seems not quite a level playing field when one car has been restored personally by a fastidious owner and another by a professional workshop at unlimited expense paid for by the owner before last. It seems there is no way round it and where would you draw the line anyway. That's why I don't think I ever want to get involved in Concours events. Bring on the scatily clad women - I'm too old to be picky!
Dave H

Dave Hill

This is why I enter shows- see the big smile! Leaving the Lake Mirror Classic Saturday. Out of 650+ cars there were exactly 3 MGs- mine, a nice A and a nearly perfect A coupe in the concours. The Weathertech girls were doing excellent job marketing at Sebring this year, bring them on! George


George Butz

I think it is already too late for the preservation class, in general. It seems as though all of the same cars show up at all of the events. Same ones always win, and seem to have already been bought up by the same people winning the regular events. They all have sort of the same patina, too. Hard to explain. Few MG's, though. Mostly Ferrari's and very old cars.
N Tesla

Looking good George!

Gene
Gene Gillam

This thread was discussed between 16/10/2015 and 27/10/2015

MG TD TF 1500 index

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