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MG TD TF 1500 - Old tools - belong to MG-TD?

I got some tools from a guy whose car was damaged. The tools haven't been expensive. Can anyone identify which part of the tools may be original for the TD. His car was from 1953.


W. Mueller

I have been going through the tools that came with my car, also a 53 and there are some real experts on this board, so expect some great information. However I am going to chip in with a response as I think I learned quite a bit this past month or so.

In the left hand photo the adjustable wrench looks like an original part of the tool kit. The open wrenches/spanners do not look right to me as I understand that the TD wrenches had a flat profile not with the indents like the ones shown. The tire iron does not look correct to me either.

In the right hand photo the only tool that might be correct is the long box spanner, but I am not convinced. The screw drivers, pliers and the right hand wrench are not like anything I have seen.

So I would say for sure the adjustable spanner is correct, the tire iron and the box spanner might be, but I don't think so, and the rest is not part of an original TD tool kit.

Best wishes
Simon, Troy Il
S Griffin

Thank you Simon,

let's see if anyone can solve the puzzle.

@all
Please say if better pictures of each tool may be more helpfull
W. Mueller

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_tools.htm this web page link will be of help for you as well.
S Griffin

I go with the adjustable spanner and maybe the tube wrench being a fit.

The link Simon gave is good, but a bit vague on the description of the knock off hammer. Should my TD hammer say Thor on it or not? Or what?
S Cole

The TD never had a knock off hammer in the original tool kit. This was part of the TF kit. The adjustable wrench should be about 6" or 7" overall & made by either King Dick or Shelley. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The two candidates as mentioned are the adjustable spanner and possibly the long box wrench, both depending on what is stamped on them. What do you see W.M.?
(That is my TF kit in the link)
Are the OE spanners Slimline?

Matthew.
M Magilton

Yes Peter, so many TD's have been converted to wire wheels, so they must carry a knock off hammer. For appearance sake a TC or TF style copper/copper hammer would be less incorrect than some modern or French hammer. There were two styles of Thor used on TC's and how many on the TF? Shelley and King Dick did not make knock off hammers for T-Types, though King Dick could be said to be a separate subsidiary of Thor, as it was owned by the same people.

The S Griffin link shows a copper/copper hammer as was supplied on some TC's. Is it the same one put in all TF's from the factory? Not talking about the Shelley ball pien hammer in the tool rool.
S Cole

The only K.O. hammer I can spot in the link is my TF hammer which is typical factory issue for TF's. Couldn't swear they were all identical of course.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Thanks Matthew. what else can you say about your pictured hammer? Usually there is prominantly on one side the maker and maybe weight of hammer emblazoned on there. The pic shows one side with a 1? Any other markings? Those copper pads unscrew for refitment? Are all the TF hammers alike as far as you know? Did you buy that after you bought the car or did it come with?
S Cole

The only marking on the hammer is the "1" (1 pound-weight?).
Pads will not unscrew, could be seized.
I have seen other hammers in surviving TF kits which look the same.
The hammer came with the car when Dad bought it from the only other owner in 1973, with the rest of the kit you saw in the link. The first owner was fastidious about keeping everything together and I even have the sales brochure with the quoted price written on it for him when he purchased the car. He was a friend of ours who liked to stay in touch with his old car.
I have attached another pic showing the hammer again with the ball pein from the same kit alongside a new Thor that I purchased over 20 years ago and have not had the heart to use.

Matthew.




M Magilton

Great shots Matt., of the TF hammers. TF9052 also has the green 1 painted original hammer depicted !!

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Thank you Rob. Interesting to note that TF9052 and my TF9097 were built on the same day.

Matthew.
M Magilton

P Hehir wrote:

The adjustable wrench should be about 6" or 7" overall & made by either King Dick or Shelley.

The part which came to me has only the stamp "Abingdon".


W. Mueller

It was of course Abingdon King Dick. I don't think any of the tools were made in Abingdon, but the origins of Abingdon King Dick were from the Coexeter family. This is an old Abingdonian name and there still exists a furniture store in Abingdon called Coxeters, which has been there for many years. "King Dick" would be an abbreviation for "King Richard", probably Richard The Lionheart - a highly revered English king (though really French by descent), but how this fits, other than as an association with strength, is unclear.
Dave H
Dave Hill

K-D was started by Thomas Mabbut (originally from Abingdon) who started the "Abingdon Works" in Birmingham in the 1850's, moving to King's Road Birmingham in 1907. King Dick was actually a prize winning bulldog owned by the owner of Abingdon Works and first registered as a trade mark in 1881.

Ref: MMM Bulletin Dec 2012 which includes an excellent article by Simon Johnston who has done much research on the subject.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Ok, thanks that is useful information, but there was a connection between Coxeter and Abingdon, so I am wondering if you have any information on that?
Dave H
Dave Hill

The TF hammer with the "1" stamped on it says nothing at all on the other side?

It looks quite similar to an apparently litle known TC KO hammer. Obscure as in only some got that hammer, while most got a more picturesque THOR hammer. Could be the TC "1" hammer only came with certain export cars? Doug Pelton did a write up

https://fromtheframeup.com/uploads/TT_TL_Original_TC_Toolkit_Specifications.pdf

on the TC tool kit and mentions the TC "1" hammer, along with the much more common THOR. I have one of the "1" hammers that came in the tools with the '49 TC/exu my dad bought in 1952. We still have the car. It also has the "1" on one side, but it also has a British Patent number stamped on the other side that links it to the Stephens Belting Co. (a huge Birmingham enterprise back then). Stephens family started the THOR hammer company in '35. Copper heads both sides that (according to the Patent No. it has stamped on it) can be unscrewed for replacement.


D mckellar

Dave, the Coxeter/Coexeter family does not get a mention in the reference. What connection do you know of?

D.M. both the new and original Thor hammers have nothing on the other sides and resemble the hammer in the TC Service Parts List illustration (there is a clearer factory photo on page 22 of The Immortal T Series by Chris Harvey).
I cant see any logic to specific hammers being packed for export cars. This would require extra labour, ordering accounting and storage for what purpose?

Matthew.
M Magilton

When searching for the origins of Abingdon King Dick some time ago I came across the Coxeter connection. It stuck in my mind because it was my home town for many years - my parents lived there and the name was familiar. But sorry I don't have any reference. I had forgotten completely about the dog, but now its jogged my memory. I
Dave H
Dave Hill

I found the link. See the following:
ianchadwick.com/motorcycles/britbikes/brit_a.html
The origins of AKD can be seen as Coxeter & Sons.
Dave H
Dave Hill

to come back to the tools - I agree with Simon and some of the others - at best the adjustable spanner might be an original fit. The rest may be original British tools, but not for the TD. Canīt see the details on the spanners - snail brand ?
Rgds, Mike

Mike Fritsch

The pic in Chris Harvey's TC book cannot make out any detail, but appears to be like the "1" hammer I have with the patent number from Thor's parent Co stamped on the other side from the "1".

MM are you saying the TC's really only had one style hammer? What is your logical theory of why most TC's had one, and some few others had another style KO hammer?

The EXU's had turn signals and bumpers, different headlights, horns and steering wheel and crank handle and dash layout, and deleted driving/fog lights. How would it be illogical and require extra labor to add the other hammer to that list, for cars being built to different specification, anyway?

The purpose why, that you ask, could well be that few people from outside Britain or Europe knew about Thor hammers, and by supplying an unbranded one to the Americans in the EXU cars they saved a little money and got no complaints.
D mckellar

The pic in Chris Harvey's TC book cannot make out any detail, but appears to be like the "1" hammer I have with the patent number from Thor's parent Co stamped on the other side from the "1".

MM are you saying the TC's really only had one style hammer? What is your logical theory of why most TC's had one, and some few others had another style KO hammer?

The EXU's had turn signals and bumpers, different headlights, horns and steering wheel and crank handle and dash layout, and deleted driving/fog lights. How would it be illogical and require extra labor to add the other hammer to that list, for cars being built to different specification, anyway?

The purpose why, that you ask, could well be that few people from outside Britain or Europe knew about Thor hammers, and by supplying an unbranded one to the Americans in the EXU cars they saved a little money and got no complaints.
D mckellar

D.M. Am I saying TC's really only had one style hammer? No. You did not read my post where I said "Couldn't swear they were all identical of course".

I do not have a logical theory to support your statement that most TC's had one style and a few another style. Was I meant to come up with one?

The EXU specs that you mention all have a specific purpose with their own part numbers as listed in the Service Parts List. They would have had to spend more money than they saved in order to not advertise another companies hammer overseas at a time when the UK were hungry for the U.S. dollar. The logic of this defies me. Do you have any evidence for export-specific hammers? Are there also export-specific versions of K-D and Shelley tools and jacks?


Matthew.
M Magilton

Matthew, you might try actually reading my initial post. Notice the question mark? Not sure why you are so intensely hostile. Got some fake TC hammers to sell or something? Did I spill the beans about the patent number that should be cast into the hammer head.

"Not advertise another co's hammer overseas..." Bizarre how your mind works. If you had been following the read here you would know that the "other co" relates to the patent number for Stephens Belting Co. which started Thor Hammer Co in 1935. Therefore the "1" hammer would be considered a generic hammer (cheaper) while the name brand THOR hammer would be more pricey. Probably made on the same assembly line. The TC THOR hammer had a stylized "THOR" cast into one side of the hammer. Both made by Stephens belting CO, one being a legal subsidiary of the other.

Other aspects of your post are so childish and offensive as to be ignored.

D mckellar

Oh pleeease don't take offence D.M. You are clearly reading my offerings in the wrong 'tone'.

I will look forwards to reading the evidence about any export-specific hammers you are able to post, wether they be "Unbranded" or otherwise .

Matthew.
M Magilton

Good link Dave and an interesting read. The Coxeter family will be part of the chain of owners.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Matthew. It is a lot more complicated than I thought. Graces Guide gives far more good information on the various Companies. It seems that Coxeter of Abingdon made cars including Peerless and The Abingdon and there was some kind of Trademark dispute. Whether this link gives the whole story I doubt, but it gives much of it. You have to dig around the various Companies. Abingdon King Dick came out of a number of amalgamations and takeovers as so many Companies have.
Go to gracesguide.co.uk and enter Abingdon King Dick, Coxeter and Sons and follow the various other Company names to piece it together.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Dave, that is a very impressive website, thank you for the heads-up. It shows many period K-D advertisements that I had not seen before which will help me to date some of my spanners. Yes, the company history gets quite complicated.

Matthew.


M Magilton

If you search for Thomas Mabbutt on that website you will find him, but there isn't much information. He is listed as a Member of the IoME and from Abingdon Gun Works in 1872. I think Abingdon Gun Works is the same as Abingdon Works Est. 1856. He is reported in The Engineer journal Nov 1901 as being on a committee for the standardisation of cycle threads, but that is it. My next step was to search for a connection between Mabbutt and Abingdon as my key interest in all this has been to find exactly why Abingdon appears in the name of a Company from Birmingham. I looked at the census for 1841 as he would have to be alive then if setting up Abingdon Works in 1856 and a fully qualified engineer in 1872. Mabbutt it turns out was a common family name in Northamptonshire and Cambridgeshire, but there were very few elsewhere. Abingdon at the time was not in Oxfordshire but was the County Town of Berkshire until 1869 There was no Mabbutt listed as born in Berkshire, only a Mabbet born 1766, which cannot be the individual concerned (birth date too early). So I am stumped - maybe Mabbutt wasn't born in Abingdon at all.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Maybe Mabbutt came from Abingdon but was not born there?
Dave if you want to email me then I can send you the article I mentioned (if you have already seen it), its a good read which also links the Shelley and K-D companies.
mbmagilton AT msn DOT com

Matthew.
M Magilton

Its possible, but seems unlikely he would use the name Abingdon in that case. He wasn't living there in 1841.
Dave H
Dave Hill

MM I already presented the case for the generic hammers being put into the exu TC's along with all the other exu specific items when they were built. It was posed as a question because I am not so arrogant as to believe some coincidences prove anything. What coincidences? If the fromtheframeup link was not working for you, here is what was written in the Tool article when it got to wheel hammers: ""Double headed copper hammer. 2 variations: "THOR- Made in England" considered prominent for the full production run and a late style with "1" stamped on the head. Weight was 1 lb."" Note that the generic hammers became available in TC "late" production.

Now there are some pretty well documented original cars that were among the last few produced (not exu)and they had the usual "THOR" emblazoned hammer used throughout production. It is not accepted that the generic "1" Thor hammer simply replaced the other when the supply finally ran out.

The number of authentic TC "1" hammers with the patent number stamped on the other side linking it to the Thor parent Co (Stephens Belting Co)is quite unknown, with most "experts" 30 years ago insisting there was only the one common "THOR- Made in England" KO hammer. Most TC owners today are unaware of the fact there are actually 2 different KO hammers that could have been originally supplied with their "late" production TC. The generic are that uncommon. I don't know what evidence finally settled the dispute over the originality of the "1" generic hammer, but undoubtedly many TC owners believed the experts of their day, and discarded their oddball "1" hammers and found genuine or reproduction "THOR- Made in England hammers," and it is forever lost as to which car they came with, because everybody wants to believe the car they bought has all the original stuff like that.

More coincidental evidence is when the 494 exu cars were built, out of the total 10,000 TC's built (just under 5%). There is a lot of talk about why the EXU was done, but most agree it was really all about the bottom line. They began building several exu cars each day, along with the standard version cars, beginning in mid December 1948 (car #7380) and TC production ended just a little over one year later. In other words the EXU's were all built during "late" TC production, which does coincide with the "late" introduction of the generic "1" hammer.

It is just a possibility MM, and there is nothing I know of to prove it is wrong. No proof it is correct either. No proof either way, yet, and there may or may not ever be any.
D mckellar

Proof or no, I am still waiting to be convinced that Abingdon would order, account for, and run two stocks of hammers. Over the years that T types were produced I can well imagine there were variations in the head castings of the hammers from Thor. I doubt if Inward Goods at Abingdon cared just so long as the hammers filled the contract for a 1Lb copper head. As for the existence of the simple "1" hammers, I can assure you that you are preaching to the converted (as the saying goes).

Matthew.
M Magilton

David, Simon Johnston frequents the MMM forum. He may be able to help you with Mabbutt.

Matthew.
M Magilton

This thread was discussed between 14/01/2017 and 18/01/2017

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