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MG TD TF 1500 original/restored? BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
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MG TD TF 1500 - original/restored?
| How can anything be both at the same point in time? If you are an 'original' then you can't be a 'restored' and if you are a 'restored' you can't be an 'original'. What am I missing here? Greg & Grimm |
| G.J. Cenzer |
| Greg, I have been "invited" to bring my car to a show we attended last year. I am still attempting to figure out how 1st place in "European Sports Classic Class" went to a 2005 Cobra built in Texas with a 351 Cleveland engine (not a "427" like the sticker said) 2nd place went to a 2004 fiberglass "Porshe 555 Spyder" made only God knows where with a sickly looking old VW engine that very few people got to see. 3rd place did go to a 74 Mercedes! (how did that sneak in there?) I asked the guy if I should enter my car in their "Speciatly Class" or the "Reproduction / Kit-Car Class" if we attend this year! Also not in attendance at the "Antique & Classic Car Show" mear here where PT Cruiser was the "featured Marque" this year! I believe there is a serious "rip in the space and time continume" as we know it...this might also account for the loss of my "clutch foot" that was "left" (pun-intended), for repairs weeks ago at the prothiese shop that moved and now does not seem to be able to find it! Yesterday I got an inventation from them to attend a "special evaluation clinic" were I can ask questions about "new prosthetic advances" and "get answers from the vice-president" of this company! Any guess what my 1st question will be? Maybe I'll drive up there to see you and Grim ...I think I could use a good hit of your oxygen about now! Keep on keeping on my friend ...at some point we will the answers to all our sillly questions! Cheers & Best Regards, David 55 TF1500 #7427 |
| David Sheward |
| I would like to see all car shows have 'original' and 'restored' classes.... I love seeing the old well worn 'originals'...(hmmm...wonder why)? |
| gblawson - #27667 |
| I think that by "original" they mean as built from the factory opposed to a custom or modified car. I remember when 'Classic" was a description guarded and applied by a select committee to only to certain cars of the 20s and 30s such as Pierce Arrow, Cadillac, Duesenberg, the real Lincolns, Packard, Cord, etc. Now "classic" is so generic that it has no meaning. On eBay there are all kinds of descriptions that are at times humorous. Another term that has lost its value is NOS for new old stock. Originally it was old original stock from the factory of the particular brand that had stayed on a shelf in a dealership or somewhere and never sold. There was another designation called NORS, which was New Old Replacement Stock, for old aftermarket parts. Now NOS means unused MOSS motors stuff ;>) Dallas |
| Dallas Congleton |
| David, And are you considering actually returning to that show next year? Lew |
| Lew Palmer |
| Or, soon to appear on eBay: "NNOSRCSFOOSP" (Nearly New Old Stock Reproductions, Cast Sometimes From Original Old Stock Parts) |
| gblawson - #27667 |
T er's - Well I don't have a lot of time to follow this site but so far it is some very good info and insite. Now, FWIW, I'll throw my two cents worth in. Relative to original & restored, there are very few original cars left out there and most are NOT restored just repainted and a few new MOSS parts. There was a 54 TF a few weeks ago at the Pittsburgh Vintage Gran Prix, very very tired and dirty but it was ALL original. Most people did not take the time to look at it beacuse the chrome was not shiny, their loss ! If you are talking about original vs restored parts, now you are in my back yard. Example, an original grill shell on all T series and some MGA's is brass. If you have that rechromed THEN it is restored, assuming it is triple plated. I restore most, and have for 44 years, original parts to their original condition or better. A R-141 tach drive will have all the case markings or brass tag and hardened brass gears. The repros from others have nylon or fibre gears, not really meant to last. Dallas is partially right, todays thinking is NOS means Moss old stock, 1973 - 1995/96. PRIOR to that, Al supplied original parts in original DATED boxes, those days are long gone. For those of you out there that are buying new parts for your T car, you will be buying them again, they won't last, they can't because they are not made the same. I have recently had a flood of emails from people looking for distributor caps. OH, you say the new ones are bad and they have cracks in them, well sorry to hear that. I have original caps on several of my T cars that have been on the car for 30+ years, all I do is clean the rotor/points and cap a couple of times a year, that takes all of maybe fifteen minutes. Oh, not enough time in your busy schedule to do a simple little maintainance, sorry to hear that too, THAT my friends is part of the fun in owning these cars. 'Ya gets what ya pay for', if you have not yet learned this fact thru your life experiences, it is that simple folks. mick |
| Mick |
| There are a lot of us who are really 'lucky' in that our cars came out of a barn/garage/whatever with all the old parts still there, just needing cleaning basically. Its hard to imagine however, tackling a 'field' rust bucket and not having to deal with repro parts... its great to find actual NOS, but as you say, they are almost all gone. Looking at the prices that 'used' parts go for on ebay and at auto jumbles, don't be too hard on the guys buying Moss or equivalent. Yes, they will have to buy again soon, but to get a car on the road (without selling your kids) most have to watch costs. I clean my original cap as well, and wires/etc, however, that doesn't mean that one day I will snap it back in place and have dancing sparks that night...! I like the idea of tracing parts that were used in other vehicles...I mean Abingdon was after all, only an assembly plant..most all the parts were used in many English vehicles... just depended what company liked the style part or the Company producing the part. Bring on the 'Brand New" tractor parts if they will fit!!!!! |
| gblawson - #27667 |
| The problem seems to be the decreasing quality of repro parts. I understand the difficulty of finding a company to make a tiny batch of anything, and the difficulty of making it correctly. However, so many things could be made properly with little additional cost. Why bother stamping bumper bars that are shaped wrong? The repros have been wrong for years. Just re-do the die so the top edge is wider. Hand-fitting and fit of some things will always be needed. But junky chome, ill-shaped posidrive screw heads, plastic gears are just poor. If we, the consumer, keep squaking loudly enough, maybe the suppliers will tighten up. But, as Mick said, quality costs money. A couple years ago, someone tried to do a run of Mickey Mouse air cleaner wingnuts for $25 each, and had virtually no takers. So we all gleefully buy the wrong one from the suppliers. Many things are now even better than new quality- crankshafts, pistons, cams, etc. It seems to be the smaller things that are junk. Why didn't Moss refuse the batch of bad caps? Go figure. Anyone read about the latest batch of Ford plant closings today? After the last (and I do mean, the last forever) 4 pathetic Fords we owned, I bet they use the same quality suppliers! I think I need to go work on my body tub some more- enough of this. Life is really good. George |
| George Butz |
| I was at a Concours d'Élégance seveal years ago and there was a prize for the most original imported car. Well you should have seen what a fuss that caused. I was a finalist against another "unrestored" TF - a magnificent Trailer Queen. For those of you who have see my high-mileage TF, know that I am the original purchaser of my TF (still have all the original docs), and my TF is ABSOLUTELY original, except for being on its 4th engine and a 4.3 cwp and other safety replacements. The paint is what I prefer to call "1954 Patina red", and is clearly "not there" in certain places: and I think the odometer has been around at least twice - most recently to and from Gatlinburg. Nisonger rebuit it and zeroed the tumblers so I can't really say. However back to the saga. I protested vehemently that my ageing croc WAS original and to prove it, I pointed to the 10 weld spots on each side of the rear apron, that fastens the underside bracket, and that had been refinished on his car, but showed on mine. Now, is that pickey-pickey, or what? but it IS original. How many of you TF owners can still see those weld spots? Go out in the garage right now and have a look! Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A. Clark |
| I think I agree with just about everything thats been said. I took a half disassembled, been setting for 35 years in barn TF and did a nut and bolt. Most of the missing parts (there were a lot) came from Moss. Price was rarely an issue. Availibility was. I looked for 6 months before I found a grill shell that was in good enough shape to be straightened and re chromed. Many parts didn't fit correctly but most did. Would I buy NOS if available? You bet. But as Mick says you get what you pay for. I'll put my 48 spoke Daytons against a set of original or reproduction Dunlaps any day of the week. Same goes for the chrome moly crank that I had to buy. I like original over rebuilt amost every time, but in my case it was just not possible. LaVerne |
| LED DOWNEY |
Well it looks like I have raised a few feathers, and that IS what this forum is about. I applaud anyone that has an original car and maintains it that way. Likewise anyone that goes to the next two levels to make and keep it correct. I am building a TF (restoring) right now using all 'original' parts and thanks to George Butz have found an original bumper that was just not to be found for many years. What I really do need now is a good set of original used carpets !!! And yes, there have been improvement is some parts and the crank IS one. technology has changed in 40+ years, but call a spade a spade. The BS about the XPAG cranks is NOT completely true and I can prove it. In almost all of the cases I have seen, a cracked crank has NEVER been the fault of the crank, period. If you really check it's background history, you will find the motor has had poor maintainance or been rebuilt and the crank turned WRONG, trust me !! I have never had, nor seen, a standard original crank that was cracked and if you have one I will buy it from you just to test it. I have rebuilt over 440 XPAG motors and have six on the floor right now, so I am quailified to make these statements. I have also been in manufacturing for fourty years as well, so I know first hand what goes on, Like George I don't understand why you can't make it right when you are making the production sample, just laziness? The root cause of the sub-standard parts issue is you, the buyer. If YOU are willing to except what they are offering, then so be it, it is YOUR money, I can't and won't tell you how to spend it. NOW, if you want to know a problem with something here it is. The tranny cluster gear is GARBAGE and poorly designed and engineered, THAT folks I do admit. It is a problem, has always been a problem and unless you drive a little more senseably or replace it with a 5 speed, will always be a problem. I have recently made a run of 39 new and improved cluster gears with the help of a state-of-the-art gearmaker, but the gearbox design is still an issue on the TD &TF. THERE, now I have called a spade a spade. rgds mick |
| Mick |
| WOW!!! wish they had include a pic of this one! This is listed on the Kruse web page for Auburn 2006. Greg & Grimm Live Auction Vehicle Detail: Auburn, IN August 30-September 5 3433 1986 MG 1100 Replica Roadster This is a replica of a 1923 MTG. ENGINE - 4 TRANS TYPE - Auto EXT COLOR - Red INT COLOR - Red |
| G.J. Cenzer |
| Ah yes...the old 'MTG'...little known model from the 20's |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| original/restored? and the other term "un-molested"! From this BBS one of my favorite projects to watch has been Gordon's "barn-find" and the time he has put into it preserving the patina of an old hand made T. Just my opnion....but hard work & elbow grease impress me more than how fat yer wallet is and if you can afford to purchase every "re-pro" part in the catalog! Gordon was lucky to find what I would call an "un-molested" T and bring it back to life! Then there are the "over-restored" ...car's brought back to life at such an expense that they are doomed to life in a trailer and only see the "short-road" from hidden locations behind walmart to the "car show" to collect a trophy and back to the trailer again. Poor babies! My TF landed somewhere in the middle of these...an older restore where she was "caked" with body filler to hide all the "imperfections" in metalwork done by our friends the "panel-bashers", some re-chroming of parts, mostly orginal but somewhat "hacked" back together more for show than go! This seems to have been "the way to go" for a lot of these cars durring the 70's and early 80's. Waxed more than driven, I found "Izzy" in the hands of owner # 2 with 23k on her "clock" and she had not "seen rain" for years. (Izzy likes to play in the rain!...she prefers to be washed that way!) I was delighted in 2001 (the infamous "3-day paint touch-up" that lasted 9 1/2 months) to find that under all the filler she had no rust or dents and decided all that was needed was some very minor repairs and thin coat of filler to look once again more like she no doubt did when she left Abingdon for the USA in 1954. My favorite parts of her now are where you can see where the "bashers" left some imperfections in the tub comming up behind the doors and around the boot. I get asked all the time why I didn't "fix" these when I had her down to bare metal. I feel I did "fix" them when I got all the filler out that was put in there in the 70's so you can see the beauty of an old hand made auto! Where it has been possible I have gone for NOS when you can find them and/or "orginal restored" over re-pro parts, a lesson learned that helped the post office stay in bussiness as about 1/3 of re-pros I purchased early in the game went back with a note stating they should be returned to China or Tiwan! (hmmmm I wonder, is this why they are building a facory here now! LOL) With 50,100 on the clock now I don't really think Izzy "fits" in any of "original/restored/un-molested/or bastardized"...I guess I would consider her as "re-sorted" using mostly "period parts" with some liberties taken to enhance the driving experance. Cheers, David 55 TF1500 # 7427 |
| David Sheward |
| OOps, Lew..."are you considering actually returning to that show next year?" It's today ...and I'm not there! There are so many car shows in Ohio now it is becoming hard to select one to go to. (right now I'm not going anywhere till the "leg shop" finds my freakin clutch foot! ...They moved and seem unable to locate my left leg since the move.) Izzy and I have decided at this point in our lives we will now "select" a car show to attend baised on the "meriots of the proceeds" and if the road there looks like fun to drive. Youngsters in need of medical help that have been squezzed out of their health plans by greedy corporations looking to "save a buck" are on the top of the list! Show's with giant trophy's and stuffy "A_H judges" that don't know the differance between metal & fiberglass and/or a car built in the 20's/70's or one that was shipped last week are on the bottom of the list! Cheers, David 55 TF1500 #7427 |
| David Sheward |
| Mick, Abingdon show the AAA5469 Cluster Gear at $945. This seems to be an astronomical price (likewise many other gb parts, like the 1st motion shaft at $635). Do you know if their offering is representative of good quality? And if so, is it worth $945? Somehow, I can't see Bob Seymour offering anything of 2nd class quality. Maybe it IS worth it? What's the problem with the original cluster gear/design in the first place? I have somewhere in my junk pile, a nearly new cluster gear with a tooth out of 2nd or 3rd gear (can't remember) that came out of my spare and rebuilt gaer box which now has a brand new Cluster Gear. I've had this rebuilt gearbox for 20 years, standing by ... "just in case". I just hope the cluster gear I had installed back in the late 70s is of good quality. I guess I'm lucky as I've never had any problem with my present and original gearbox. Gord Clark Rockburn, Qué. |
| Gordon A. Clark |
Gord - Good morning. I guess I need to explain a bit more so others fully understand. First off, you are right, I think Bob & the ladies are doing a fine job. I have a much better relationship now than in years past. I think Jerry was always mad at me because I sold so many NOS & original parts ( and still do) and NEVER refered a customer to me. Bob on the other hand has referred customers my way and even buys parts from me for special needs. Enough, about that. The TD/TF cluster gear is really only part of the problem and the end result winds up tearing out the cluster gear. The overall gearbox design is poor at best ( compared to the TC, far more robust ), and NOT meant for daily use as intended. Nowadays, most are driven for pleaseure and not abused and they will be fine that way. The first run of cluster gears sold out in one week, mostly thru word of mouth MG-TABC. I now have an unadvertised second run going on because of the demand and quality of the first run ( some people have installed the first one and ordered a second as a spare.) I also have a run of TC cluster gears going that should be finished soon, I hope. I have a couple TC's not sold as I ordered spares to get a better discount on the larger quantity. BTW, I did not made any money or profit from the first run of TD/TF or TC cluster gears, that was a group effort, so if you need a TC/TD/TF/Y type cluster gear, I have a few for sale if anyone needs them. I have been thinking about coming up to your Bronte Park show next month, and suggestiions ? RGDS Mick MMMGTCARS@yahoo.com |
| Mick |
| Bronte is a show you don't want to miss...from a 'show' standpoint, there are around 800 cars. Back at the back of the park, there are always models unexpected....15 or 20 Rolls.... Rover army vehicles... etc, etc. The vender line of about 20 is always busy. Usually a couple parts people, clothing, patches,couple trailers of used parts, insurance, car kit company, etc. Bronte is in Oakville, Ontario, off the QEW about 10 minutes... and Oakville is about 40 minutes from the border at Buffalo, N.Y. In and around the QEW are quite a few motels...Best Western/Mini Hilton/fair spread in cost. |
| gblawson - TD#27667 |
| Any of you want to see a really original mgtf, come to the Battle of the Brits Car Show and see TF 6688, it will be there rain or shine. For you diehards, I might put on the orig filter can and the orig windows. Some of the above writers have seen this car (Lew, Mick) and can attest to its authenticity and superb condition for a 52 year old car. If is supposed to have spot welds, I guess they are there....Gord. |
| Colin Stafford |
| Greg C, Last night I accessed the tregister online new listings for our cars set-up by Steve James(UK). Punched in TD11547,your car,and up came the photograph.I must say a handsome looking red TD! Could I ask what the models(type and make)were located on the bonnet? They appeared to be pretty impressive too! Hope you are going ok at the moment. Cheers Rob. Grantham PS I tried to send you this message via your email address,but it promptly came back denying access!? |
| Rob Grantham |
| I love to see unrestored original cars, but not everyone has that option. My car was so far gone when I acquired it, I had to do a body off restoration just to have a decently running and driving car. The tie bar behind the seats was just about completely gone, and a new one had to be fabricated. A lot of the rest of the metal and wood had to either be repaired or replaced. When you go that far, you end up rechroming everything and replacing a lot of the marginal stuff. I tried to refurbish the originals as much as possible, but sometimes they were either too far gone, or just missing. I replaced the funky diamond fuel pump with a new SU from Moss. On and on it goes. I was lucky to find some restorable authentic air filter cans for my TF, but it took a couple of years of searching. Anyway, I'm proud of my car, even though it doesn't necessarily have all of the same parts that it had when it left the factory. I did my best to restore it to original spec, and I'm fairly satisfied with it. I can always see a few imperfections, but then it probably wasn't a perfect car even when it left the factory. |
| Mark B. |
| Rob, Don't understand my email not working?? Will investigate! I have 5 emails and I am open to the world so here they are: mgbgtgrimm@att.net lsmft@att.net mgbgtgrimm@wowway.com ritam@wowway.com ralphie@wowway.com The models are Doepke cast models from the '50's and what I do is super detail them by adding hinges, wipers/motors, door handles, wood rim steering wheels,mesh grilles, headlamp stone guards, and other sundries. There are some pics of them at: http://community.webshots.com/user/52mgtd Basically I'm doing fine just that I don't have any air (like a Flat tire). If I try to do something that requires effort my oxygen level drops from 91 to 75 real fast (like putting the hood down on the TD). It actually drops to 85 just getting into the driver's seat. Never smoked a cigaette in my life, go figure. Greg & Grimm |
| G.J. Cenzer |
| NOW why didn't lsmft@att.net ritam@wowway.com show up as clickable like the other three? Computers cause more heart attacks than anything else! My balistic statistic! Greg & Grimm |
| G.J. Cenzer |
| OK I just sent emails from all my email addresses to all my email addresses and had no problem with any of them so I don't know what the problem could be. Gotta go smoke my pipe now be right back. Greg & Grimm |
| G.J. Cenzer |
| If I'm not mistaken the TF parked next to my at The 2005 Battle of the Brits is Colin Stafford's TF and it shows up in the pic. Greg & Grim |
| G.J. Cenzer |
This thread was discussed between 18/08/2006 and 20/08/2006
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