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MG TD TF 1500 - Original Top?

I put the top/hood of my 53 TD up for the first time in years the other day and got to wondering if it is original to the car. It has been on the car since I bought it in 1957 but it has a larger window than what I remember on most TD’s at the time. I’ll post a few pictures and ask if anyone can help me determine definitely if it’s original or not. It’s certainly not weathertight anymore, but then I only drive in good weather so that’s no problem.

Also notice the yellow color of the bows which is certainly different from the color that seems to be the consensus of previous threads. I can’t find any evidence that they have ever been repainted.

Thanks,
Joe



Joe Olson

Left front corner


Joe Olson

Left rear


Joe Olson

Interior. Note yellow bows.


Joe Olson

Interior. Thanks for looking!


Joe Olson

Hi Joe. I'm still on a steep learning curve with the TD top and side curtains, but I agree with you that the rear window does seem to be too large to be the original one. (I do hope you can extricate your screens without any damage). Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The large rear window is the result of an aftermarket top. They are quite old and I haven't seen that style top the past 20 years. The one advantage of that style - you get a better rear view.
Cheers,
DW DuBois

To keep the top / hood in good condition it seems a good idea to erect it once a year - both to give it an airing and to stretch the canvas cover. Yours still fits, so I guess that living in a relatively dry climate helps. Definitely aftermarket hood and the frame has probably been repainted as well, it does look yellower than the light pink brown shade that I thought was original.
Dave H
Dave Hill

I’m certainly no expert on originality when it comes to hoods. But the huge window certainly doesn’t fit the norm for the small windows. What I do find interesting is the hid-em strip for the rear tack rail. Snaps at the ends I believe would be correct. The cream bows may have been repainted though if you’ve had the car since 1957 I find it hard to believe they would have required repainting at a time before then. Your top looks to be a true canvas. My dad once told me they were only water resistant in wet weather until you poked it with a finger or the top of your head. Lol

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Joe, don't know if it is original but the two screws holding the top to the most reward bow appear to be in the original location. There was a recent tech article in the Scared Octagon that confirmed that those two screws went from the outside, through the top and into the bow. Apparently there was a flexible washer of some sort to seal the hole.

Bill, shelter halves (individual tents in the Army) were the same. Once you touched the inside it would leak at that point. I complained to General Custer but he was occupied at the time.

Tim
TD12524
TD26711
Timothy Burchfield

That large window is definitely not factory, but let me present another thought:

The back window in these cars yellowed within months in many cases, especially in hot, smoggy California.

It could be possible that the original owner had the top removed and the original rear window replaced with a larger window and then reinstalled the top.

Without touching and seeing the top up close, it's hard to tell from the pictures if its an original top or not.

Interestingly though most replacements at the time were vinyl as they held up better and were easier to clean. It's really only been since the 70's that collectors and restorers went back to canvas for the more traditional look.
Christopher Couper

Chris makes a good point. I would find it difficult to believe that the canvas would require replace after only several years of service. But the early plastic windows would go bad rather quickly especially in hot climates.

Chris do you have a comment regarding the hid-em at the tub tack strip?

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

I'm not quite sure what to think just yet. I'm leaning toward aftermarket, but still have doubts. Chris, do you have an idea of what I should look and feel for to get a better idea if it's original or aftermarket? If the bows have been repainted, someone went to a lot of trouble removing them to repaint them.

Thanks, everyone, for all your comments. I'd be happy to read more of them if you have anything to add.

Joe
Joe Olson

I have seen so few original tops, but here is a late 1951 TD I took pictures of back in the mid 70's. You can just make out the hidem in the picture.

Perhaps the TD's used nails through a hidem strip vs the flap and screws we see on TF's. This also would give credibility to Joes being an original top too.



Christopher Couper

Joe: Look at the texture of the top on TF9052. See if yours looks like that. Moss sells a duck like tonneau cover today that is essentially the same material as the original top and side curtains were. It's much coarser than the Stayfast materials that are used today.

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/Thumbnails/mgtf_tf9052.htm

As far as the bow color is concerned: I can only fathom that the color was a poor match and the factory just went with it or else the same smog that affected the windows shifted the color. It appears to have a yellowish tinge vs the normal tan color we normally see. Note the TF's actually had a more reddish hue on their frames.

Since your side curtains are tucked away we cannot tell what color those frames are. Your curtains are black so we know they have been replaced. Perhaps when you get your Gorillas you can see what color the frames are.
Christopher Couper

Thank you Chris for your response. I have color pics of dad’s car but they are all at quite a distance from the car ( the car not really being the focal point ) and the detail is lost. I have never seen an original intact canvas installed and don’t recall seeing the hid-em. I have remnants on several cars so I’ll have to investigate further and see if anything is left on the tack strip. The top I received from Tops Online had an inner flap most likely similar to the TF you describe. I have a Moss top for dad’s car but haven’t unpacked it yet to see what Robbins does to theirs

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Same as TF, no rear hidem.
Factory photo attached.

Matthew.


M Magilton

Wow, same owner since 1957! That is remarkable Joe.

Separate issue from the window size. Note that the top to rear bow screws are visible outside. I presume they have been that way for 60 years. That continues to be a point of debate in restoration circles.
When I placed a new top on my TF, the screws were placed as shown on Joe's top. Visible outside.

Tom
'54 TF
T Norby

It seems I have the same top except for the large rear window and the rear hidem.
I know it was replaced in UK in 1970.

Laurent.
LC Laurent31

"That continues to be a point of debate in restoration circles."

It should not be. Notice the little protective disc of fabric under the washer.

They should be painted tan too. And even more fun was the hidem end cover up front was painted flat tan too.

These washers from Fastenal are a pretty good approximation of the originals. Notice the flat bottoms vs the traditional ones we see today that would cut into the hood fabric.

http://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0172759



Christopher Couper

The 'visible screws' are a really interesting point. Careful examination of the pic of my bows below, showing the bows wrapped in canvas, seems to indicate that there is indeed some material under the washer between it and the bow canvas. Could this be a remnant of the original top? If so it suggests that the screw was visible and even more importantly that the bows were indeed originally wrapped in canvas. How else do you explain this? Rod Jones certainly thought so when he restored his top as he went to the trouble to wrap his bows. Cheers
Peter TD 5801



P Hehir

It's possible they wrapped the frames early on but later decided against it since it may not have resulted in any real value.

When that may have happened, if at all, would be very difficult to discern at this time. There are very few pictures of interiors up this high in the view of original cars.
Christopher Couper

Interesting I have early bows with material the length to the bows. I thought it was simply remnants from the top. TD-4834 had such remnants on it before I restored the bows. I’ll have to take a closer look at my spares as well. The factory supplier may have exposed the screws but it seems they were reducing the canvas integrity in doing so. Screws work loose and a possible tear then developed. It’s was before my time and it is a detail that dad never brought up. It’s too bad that there may not be any known examples left of truly authentic and unaltered cars in all its details to be sure of anything. The screws being so small I doubt they would show up much in factory promo photos.

Something else to start researching I guess

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

My top is secured with nails in a hidem strip, just like the photo of the unrestored TD Chris posted above. Matthew says there is no rear hidem, but that’s not crystal clear in the picture he posted. Looks like it could be either way to me. My top material and construction are quite similar to those in the photos of the unrestored TF in the link Chris posted, but I’m not sure if that proves anything. Clausager’s book states that TDs and TFs had single ply duck as the material, but the Moss catalog says TDs had duck and TFs had a multi-ply canvas. Maybe I can get a sample of duck from Moss to compare with mine. I’d like to think my top is original, but the large window and yellow bows still point to a replacement. It may be very old, worn, and tired now (just like I am) but it was very professionally installed. I may never know for sure. I’ll just leave it down and continue to enjoy driving the car for as long as I can.
Joe
Joe Olson

Bill, as I mentioned above the Sacred Octagon (December 2017 issue) has a lengthy discussion regarding the placement of the two most rearward bow screws in the Technical Topics section. The conclusion is that the screws were inserted from the outside. Don Lawson the TSO tech adviser night be willing to discuss the issue with you. Here is his contact information (570) 350-4801 or mgtrtech@ptd.net. If you are a NEMGTR member the TSO articles are available here after you log in. https://www.nemgtr.org/online-tsos-other-files.html.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Lets see if this helps.
New TC, does not even have number plates fitted yet.
Image used in various publications such as The T Series Handbook, Dick Knudson.
Visible screws, no rear hidem.


M Magilton

And an early TD (unperforated wheels), again plates have not been fitted yet.

Seems to me that one style of tailoring was used throughout post war T types, despite a few small material and colour changes.

Matthew.


M Magilton

Thanks Matthew. Looks like more evidence that mine is not original.
Joe
Joe Olson

TFs originally at least, visible countersunk screws(bolts) ,slot head with Flanged Washer under the head. Material washer under the Flanged
Washer.

No Hidem at the rear of the hood. Countersunk,Phillips Head woods crews
with Flanged Washers. Nice to see the Phillips Head screws lining up 'squared' evenly to one another. (although this was not done in the Factory !!). (lol)

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Never made sense to me to put a nice flap on the top and then run screws from the outside through the whole thing. So easy to hide them under the flap and eliminate the horse and buggy look. original or not, I put mine under the flap, looks nicer and it also eliminates the possibility of a leak developing around the screw. PJ
PJ Jennings

If i may go a little off topic for a minute, is there a guide book for MG T Series originality (e.g. top attachment) used by judges to evaluate cars at shows?

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

PJ, I wonder if the interior flap was original or put on later on aftermarket tops.

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

If you look up unrestored MGTF 1500, you will see MGTF 9052 with the screws through the top and exposed and with the flap. PJ
PJ Jennings

Found the pic. PJ



PJ Jennings

PJ, I thought you were talking about the flap inside the hood that most people put the rear most bow screws through (not from the outside). Obviously they can't be seen in the picture so I assume you are talking about the flap at the taking strips. Right?

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

No Tim, the flap on the outside, on top of the hood.
Hard to see in the photo but it shows the screws on the outside. PJ




PJ Jennings

Tim,

Go to Chris Couper's Original MG TF website.

There are some good pictures there of 9052 of the hood.

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/Thumbnails/mgtf_tf9052.htm


While I was browsing, I happen to notice that they put a round piece of the hood material under the flanged washer that is exposed from the top of the hood. I can see material on both sides of the car.

I never noticed this before until closer inspection.

Attached is a photo enlarged so you can clearly see the material underneath the flanged washer.

Frank
TF1414



Frank Cronin

Just one more picture since it was discussed above.


Frank
TF1414



Frank Cronin

Frank, I'm very familiar with Chris's TD site but rarely visit the TF site. Thanks for the tip. I'm trying to figure out what flap PJ is talking about. It seems he is referring to a flap on the outside rear of the hood. My car with the hood installed is in storage for the winter and I'd rather not open the new hood box until I need to to see if there is a flap.. Do TF hoods have a flap on the rear of the hood, above the rear window under which screws in your picture could be inserted into the bows? BTW the December 20017 TSO has a very good tech article on the location of the screws shown in your enlarged picture. They also have material under them.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Worth comparing the pic of my original fixing shown above with Frank's pic showing the close up of the flanged washer. They seem identical to me. The slot head is notable as it must be one of the few on a TF that weren't changed to Phillips which occurred during the TD production run.

I'm starting a new thread on whether the bows on early TD's at any rate, were originally covered with fabric. Input from those few remaining original owners of TD's is welcomed. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Tim, I thought I posted this how I put the screws in my top, no one even knows their there under the flap. PJ


PJ Jennings

Frank Cronin
Thank you for the enlargements of the "visible screw" area photos. What a great 1954 idea! I plan to make fabric washers and place them under my cupped washers.

Tom
'54 TF
T Norby

PJ, that clears up the confusion. I wasn't aware or I didn't remember that there was a flap over the rear bow on the outside of the hood. Unless someone is really a stickler for originality putting the screws from the outside under the flap makes a whole lot of sense. But it doesn't appear there was the flap on the original TD hoods. Thanks for the clarification.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

Tim, if you want to see a flap on an original TD hood then have a look at my picture in the 27th post above.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Matthew, I'm slow but I'm not very fast. Now I see the flap PJ is talking about on an original hood. Putting the screws under the flap is a solution but puts the bow too far back in my opinion. Thanks for the clarification.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

As far as putting the bow too far back, were speaking about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch back, the top looks good in that position. It's a matter of preference I guess. PJ
Mine,



PJ Jennings

PJ your top looks fine but it appears black in your picture (just kidding). I was referring to where the factory put the screws when I said too far back.

Regards

Tim
Timothy Burchfield

This thread was discussed between 10/03/2018 and 14/03/2018

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.