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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Originality Recogntion

ref: NY Times, Sunday 19 Aug 2007, pg. 11 of the Sport Section, Automobiles.

A great article on originality, "Leaving Well Enough Alone, The Rise of the Unrestored Classic".
Its about time the classic care lovers in "this" country recognize what a valuable asset unrestord cars really are. So, they look old, with patina paint and leather and a few nick and scratches on the paint.
As the article addresses, the trailer queen vs. the original.......some owners do get out of joint. Been there, seen that.
I have met Gary Bartlett with his orig. XKSS, sure its a little worn, its 50 years old, but when he won best of class at the Meadowbrook Concours some years ago, not one of the other 15 Jag. owners complained, they looked in envy, and they had the cream of the crop in the US.

Well, lets see how many "Concours" shows have an orig. class in 2008.
Colin Stafford

I don't "restore" my car to make it look good, but to keep it running! Fast and safe!

Denis
Denis L Baggi

The article Colin is referring to can be found at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/automobiles/collectibles/19RESTO.html?ex=1188273600&en=bc376ff2dd58acb2&ei=5070&emc=eta-1

R Thadani

Thanks for putting up the site for the article.
I remember when Gary had to drive up and get his trophy, he was not too keen on going "slow" in a fast car. The XKSS has a cone type racing clutch which is easy to burn out while creeping along in 1 st gear.
It is a very cool car, as is the other one sitting in the garage.....I think a D-Type.
Colin Stafford

Hi Colin
I love to go to a car show and see examples of original TD's. I belong to two car clubs in the Washington DC area and the trailer Queens usually walk away with the trophies. In fact we have one that paid a restoration shop $75K to do his and yes he won. He was setting next to an amateur restoration with about $12 K including the cost of the car, which took second. We have to convince the well traveled car owners in our club to come to the shows. Seems they don't want to show their cars next to one of the trailer Queens. As far as restoring MG TD’s I’ve done three and they all needed wood and had rust outs in the normal TD places. They would not look too good in a show with the doors falling off because the door pillar wood was rotten at the main rail and rust cancer holes in both rear quarter panels, under the windshield posts and where the running boards attach. Two of these three cars should have been parted out or sent to the crusher if they were modern cars. I got a great deal of satisfaction on returning them to the road and no they were not totally original , but I mainly cleaned and returned the original parts to their places with new after market parts when I had to. I’ve seen your car and read about it thru Chris Coopler’s site when he wants to refer to an original T Series. I envy you somewhat for this, but I would be willing to bet your car spent a lot of it’s life in a garage or securely covered or in a dry climate. I use to look down at MGTD kit cars until I read a post by Gordon Lawson here that basically said they just want to be us. Most of us want to be you, all original, but we can’t. One of my cars sat uncovered, with the top down for ten years. When I bought it, had an oak tree growing up thru the floor board and before I could take it home I had to chain saw the tree. There went the original floor board. Congratulation on your original T Series car. John
John

I'm considering driving up to this show. No you won't see mine on a trailer. By their definitions my TF would be in the modified class. Chrome wires, BRG paint, 5 speed tranny, radial tires and mucho non-nos parts. I don't pretend that it's original. Few of us will ever stumble upon an original automobile, much less one that is streetable. Most of us purchased our MG's and found four or five layers of paint, bad upholstery and a host of missing or incorrect parts. I think for the most part we do what we can to keep the "flavor" of the cars. I don't see many posts about cramming a Chevy small block in one or putting in a boom box stero with a DVD player. Colin's car is the standard by which we judge how close we came to " the way it really was" and what we invision it was.

LaVerne

http://www.gunnisoncarclub.com/class.htm
LaVerne

Colin and others,

Well this subject is really dear to my heart. As many of you know, I bought my TF off the showroom floor in 1954, when I was still an aspiring engineer at McGill University. I have turned somersaults to keep it original, however, the paint is now seriously sad, and I am now facing the reality of TF4592 losing its virginity, because my T will always be a driver - not a Trailer Queen.

I must however, relate this story about “originality” of the T-Series. I participated in a Concours d’Élégance in Watkins Glen, back in the late 60s just before I got involved with Ferraris and put the TF in storage for a few years. Despite being far from a shiny T-Series, I won a first for the most original T and here’s why:-

There is a bracket spot-welded to the underside of the rear splash apron on the TF. This bracket is used to locate the splash-apron to the bumper bracket, and I’ve not been able to find any part number for it in any parts manual including the very excellent Anglo-British colour edition.

These spot welds have been covered with lead, bondo - whatever, to make the apron smooth. Of the many “original TF”s at that Concours, mine was the only one to still have the 12 spot weld depressions on each side. The judge was really sharp and almost incited a riot when two or three of the entrants insisted their cars didn’t come with it! ... yeah, right !!.

So now, how many of you TF owners are going to rush outside/downstairs to look at your TF believing (falsely, I’m afraid) that you do indeed still have a pukka original TF?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Gord,

In the late 60's at Watkins Glen when you entered the concours there where was the concours held. Was it in town at Layfette Park or out at the track? I had my TD entered there at both venues and I can't remember the exact years. I never took any trophies because my car was neither "concours" in any sense of the word or "original". But it was my pride and joy. I bought it for $450.00 in 1959 from a dealer as a "special deal". (buy it, but don't ever come back and complain)
And I still have it today. I drove it as an every day second family car, winter and summer, in Rochester NY for six years after I bought it. That was a feat in itself. I did a complete frame off restoration in 1968-1970 and while it is nice it is not completely pure to original standards. But it is mine, and done to my tastes. My reasoning is that I see the car 365 days a year while a judge sees it only one day a year.
Interesting footnote I have been judging the concours at the Glen during the Vintage Weekend for the past 15 years.
The photo attached was taken about five years ago. Same car, same people but the car has grown old much more gracefully than its owners.

George Herschell



George R Herschell

George, I've been meaning to ask where you found the guards for the fog lights?

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

They were purchased a long long time ago (late 60's) when I restored the car (1968-1970) from a local company called WILCO (accessories supplier) which is no longer in business. I got the ones for the headlights also from them and had the one made for the grille in the UK from the company that manufactured the ones for the lights. I don't remember what the cost was but I'm sure if you could find them today they would cost a lot more than I paid. I don't think you will find one for the grille because I've never seen another one.
There is a funny story about the nickname for my TD that comes from the wire mesh accessories. There was a member of the NE MGT Register that took great delight in picking apart others cars in the magazine TSO and he was extremely rude and opinionated. He commented on my car by saying "it had more wire screens than a butter dish in fly season". Thus the car got the nickname by some as the Butter Dish. When I got my TF which was a creamy yellow color, a friend wanted to know what I would that one and I jokingly replied the Butter Cup. Unfortunately (?) the name stuck.

Hope this sheds a little light on the wire mesh accessories.

George Herschell
George R Herschell

Interesting story, George. It was held in the park. In an earlier Concours,I think it was abt. 1958, parked next to me, was an orange XK150. With the bonnet up, everything in sight was chromed. The owner had pressure gauges on the brake lines and the fuel lines. Vacuum gauges on the inlet manifold. As I recall there were gauges everywhere.

It was very tacky and no one would talk to the owner except me.

The owner, by the way, was Big Band Leader, Paul Whiteman.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.


PS - mesh stoneguards are still available from Gregory's - just make sure to call your bank manager first:- http://www.gregorysautoparts.com/catalogue.php?t=1&c=40

Gordon A. Clark

Gord,

Thanks for the link to Gregorys. I know I never could have afforded to pay that much. But it is nice to know that they are still available.
I was not at the Glen again after 1949-1951 until the early mid 60's. (Uncle Sam took care of my travel arrangements to Korea during 52-54.) But the Concours was still at the park and later moved to the track. Our first time at the track, we were parked next to Briggs Cuiunninghams wife ("call me Lucy") and her brand new XKE Coupe with chrome wire wheels that she spent a lot of time cleaning only to find out they were not going to discount for road dust. To say she was unhappy was the understatement of the year. She did introduce us to her husband Briggs and to Alf Momo who was taking care of the tuning of their race cars. (Cunningham's and Birdcage Maseratti's)
In the early days I do remember seeing James Melton and his Mercedes and also Dave Garroway and his SS 100.
Still go every year but it's not the same.

George Herschell
Webster NY
George R Herschell

Good article. we have a member of our car club that has two fully original and unrestored cars. Nash Healy and Kaiser Darren (coolest car, doors slide in to the front fenders). Darren is fiberglass from the 50's never been repainted and still a head turner, and it wins an impressive number of shows it enters. Not a trailer queen, driven to shows, but is well cared for.

When I did my 67 B GT, I thought long and hard on this topic. Car had all original interior and original paint. I decided to repaint (original color) and redo the interior. Primarily because I did want to bring the car back to looking just like it did back in the late 60's.

As for my TD. It has been "restored" at least twice, so redoing it again really does not bother me. It is a driver, although we do occasionally go to shows.
BEC Cunha

Many years ago at a show there was a beautiful AC Coupe beautifully restored. The owner drove it to all its' shows, and there was a sign on the windshield that said:
"If you see this car on a trailer, call the police because IT'S STOLEN".

George
George R Herschell

Purchasing an orignial car in great enough condition to display as original is a matter of immense luck or money. Owning one otherwise (such as our own Gord Clark) is a matter of foresight and dilligence. Absent immense luck or money, in order to assure that I have an original, collectible car, I would have to rely on foresight and guess which of the many cars available new will even be looked at in the same way as an MG T Series, or an early Hemi Dodge, or even a road going race car. Years from now, will anyone even care what a Saturn convertible looked like new? And let's not kid ourselves, do I want to wait 40 years to find out at this point in my life?

The article about the XKSS is inspiring, but falls under the heading of a lucky strike. I applaud Gary's interest in preserving his Jag, but if I had a Jag that looked that good, I would be quite happy, even if it wasn't original!

Before I set eyes on it in 1979, years of abuse resulted in it needing a tub rebuild (there were only two pieces of sound wood in the entire tub), the original top and interior was long gone, and the resprays of paint were coming off in hunks. By April of 2005, my TD was done as an automobile, it barely quailified as a conversation piece.

I suppose my chassis is the closest thing to an original restoration on my car, and I still choose to go with cad plated bolts in weather areas; MGB GTV8 bushings in the front suspension; a 4.3:1 rear end; and a steering wheel and rocker cover which have always been on my car, but I know are not 'correct'. I'm also going with original color and feel of materials such as the paint in most places resisting the high gloss of powder coating and sticking with the satin finishes available in 1952, The interior is now closer to correct (although I have more leather than the factory supplied, but I've never had a car with leather, so this is the one and only for me.) It is green instead of red because I didn't figure that out soon enough, and what the heck, I'm colorblind anyway.

I could have parted out my TD and sought out a much more original one for the same money I've spent, but we all know that the charactor of these cars varies from unit to unit. I picked out TD15470 when I was 23 years old, and have owned it since I was 30. My kids adored it in high school, it has only stranded me twice. It is so intertwined with my life that to abandon it now in favor of something original and unrestored just because I bought it in a condition which was begging for a restoration seems like sacrilage.

My TD will never win a car show. I don't care. It will never be as appealing as a professional restoration where just the right blacking was used on the carb linkage, or as appealing as the original MK II which has its original interior placed back in for car shows. To be perfectly honest, the restoration started as a rebuild of a driver, and morphed into a more faithful restoration as I learned what was appreciated about these cars by knowledgeable folk. My aim is to create something that is about three years old, new enough to look great from five feet, but old enough to carry its aftermarket bits proudly. My car will be a rolling museum piece, if you will, of what a second owner might have done to the TD he purchased because the first owner bought an MGA. But TD15470 is and has been my faithful TD, it is the best I can afford, and I know where every nut and bolt came from.

my two cents,
dave


Dave Braun

Dave Great story!! I'm with you on everything you put forth for us to consider.

I've restored two 'T' series and enjoyed every minute of it. I don't have enough years left to do any more cars sorry to say.
Safety Fast
Bob
R. K. (Bob) Jeffers

Dave B

I applaud your perspective and sentiments.

My situation was somewhat similar. My TD, "Pugsley", was driveable (just barely) when I first saw it in 1970. By 1973 I had an ex-wife and my first MG, courtesy of the divorce. This car was too rusty, rotted and worn out, and should have been broken for parts, but I didn't know any better, and began a restoration.

Aka "A Purist's Worst Nightmare", it is the polar opposite of Colin's TF, by circumstance initially, but now by choice. I wish it had been original enough and healthy enough to clean up, maintain, and drive, but no such luck.

With no museums beating on my door, I do have unfettered license to muck about at will with it. A guy at Meadowbrook (Pugsley was NOT in the Concours) told me that the stainless grille slats should be interior color, and I agreed, but told him that I couldn't find a good paint match for the Saxe Blue seats and panels...

It sounds like a TD should, and with the modified XPAG (1466 cc), MGA front brakes and 4.3 rear end, it starts, drives and stops well. From a few car lengths away, it actually looks like a NICE TD, OEW lacquer, wire wheels w/twin spares, TC mirrors, Butler foglight, custom top and all, and I hope to continue enjoying both driving and tinkering in the future.


Cliff

I am considering adding a reverse light, and think a prewar Lucas sidelamp, with red medallion, might be a nice choice...
C A Schnell

Dave, I also concur with your thoughts. I too was not one of the lucky ones to own an original car. I will say however it is nice to see an original car and try to emmulate originality by reference. But that is my preference. All the cars and new ideas that I have seen on this site are truly amazing. The original ones, and the ones that are just the way you want them.

Dan H.
Dan Hanson

Gentlemen: Some comments on this topic from someone who is just about to get restoration finished. I bought my TF in my second year of school; had to explain to my father why I only had $200 to go back to college; courted my wife in the same, despite the fact that snow blew in around the side curtains; I constantly ran out of gas - no gas gauge; the car was not at all dependable and would break down at any time,and I did not have the funds to repair/maintain it properly. I did, however, figure out that she liked me, for no girl would have otherwise put up with it. The final indignity was, as my family grew, I put it in the garage to "fix up later" However, neighborhood kids broke in, unknown to me, and trashed it. After kids grew up; after college tuition; and after all the other expenses which crop up, I finally figured out that I better get it restored before I got too old to fold up and get into it. The restoration is as a "driver", but as close to the original as I could get,and afford. The tub was rotten - found a replacement. All seats, curtains, and top replaced. Chrome polished, but not re-chromed. Paint same color as original, but local paint shop (BRG/biscuit interior) In short, aim was to repair the car to a good driver condition, but no "trailer queen" and no intention to enter into any contest whatsoever. I never understood trailer queens - if you can't drive it, you might as well park it on the front lawn, and plant flowers in it - at least you would get some utility from it, and the neighbors can see it. At any rate, I will shortly have a very nice car; safe to operate in today's conditions; without any obvious/egregious departures from original, but no fanatical adherence to "originality"; and probably (hopefully) good for the next 20 years of enjoyment, at the conclusion of which I will probably be sitting in a corner somewhere, drooling down my chin. Can't wait. RUSS YOUNG
RUSS YOUNG

You gotta know Cliff, he is one of the longest standing members of Michigan MGT, a very humorous guy and a driver.
Colin Stafford

Gentlemen,I read with great interest and respect, your views on “trailer queens” on the BBS - at just the right time I think. You see my latest purchase is a MG TD 1952 in completely originally, untouched (and undestroyed) condition. She was originally purchased and in Rhodesia (Zimbabwe), was later sold to a MGCC member in KwaZulu Natal and was then garaged for 25 years, until some months ago when the garage needed to be cleared out. After a dust off, replacement of small rubber seals, pumping the tyres and installing a new battery, she was started up and passed the roadworthy test - first time! (Albeit with some leniency towards her oil leaks).
I attach a recent picture of “Dolly” – she cleaned up well! I have been kept busy cleaning, replacing rubbers and seals, gaskets (thanks to Denis) and hoses, tyres and rims and polishing the chrome. This is how I am going to enjoy her, driving her daily and to our local MGCC meetings - no "Trailer Queen" here!
Oh yes, I nearly forgot to mention, she is going on a 600 km run soon.
Isn’t this what MG ownership and motoring should be all about?



I de Clerk

This thread was discussed between 21/08/2007 and 24/08/2007

MG TD TF 1500 index

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