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MG TD TF 1500 - Pedal box 'inspection' on YouTube

Hello again,

I'm in the "inspection" stage of this project and thought it might be fun to pose my next "question" using video. It's the pedal box inspection, and, yes, I know I say "brake" when I meant "clutch pedal" but I'm getting old and confused...

http://www.youtube.com/user/efhask#p/a/u/0/_78hU8hwb2M

Your advice is GREATLY appreciated, as always!
Ed
efh Ed

Good idea Ed, that is a GREAT way for many of us to relate our own situations with those experts who have done evaluations and repairs before us! Looking forward to the responses.
Randy
R Biallas

Hi Ed -

Nice idea on the video. Yes you do need to replace the bushings (at the least) on your pedal assembly. You may also find that the actual shaft is worn and will also need replacing. You are looking at three bushings and one shaft possibly. You may also be missing a spacer - Since you have the tub and fenders off - this will be a simple job and one you can do with just a few difficult steps.

The two frame bushings may just push out - mine on the TF just pushed out with my finger following removal of the shaft.

The bushing on the brake arm is easily pressed out and in. One of your difficult steps will be replacing the spring on the brake arm. Anoth difficult step is placing the woodruff key for the clutch arm and sliding on the arms and spacers inside the box.

It is also sometimes difficult to remove the arms from the shaft if it has become rusted at all.

search pedal box on in the archives and you will see much discussion of lubrication and proper repair of the pedal slop.

Good luck - I did this last winter on the TF with the body, floorboards, and fender in place. It is not an awful job - but not a fun one either!

Jeff
J. W. Delk

I told you it was gonna be "since I'm this far I might as well". Yes, from the video I vote for pull the shaft out and put a new bush in the brake pedal. Chances are pretty good you will have to build up the shaft or buy a new one. The bush doesn't show much slop in the frame but plan on a new set for it also. Leave the master cylinder alone. Easy enough to get to and repair later if needed. Check with others about pedal modifications for better lubrication. Me I just drilled through the shaft to get the grease on two sides instead of one. Now that you have found the zerk, make sure you put the gun to it at least once a year.

Front seal... If you didn't notice excessive oil consumption then leave it alone. If you think you need to fix it then pull the engine and remove the tranny and get the engine upside down and remove the sump and timming cover. Get the newer type seal and a speedi sleeve for the crank shaft pully or ypou are just wasteing yopur time. If you get that far you should probably replace the clutch and throw out bearing as well.

I told you that you could easily slip over the hill real quick....paint and body...paint and body...
LED DOWNEY

Glad you all like the video inspection! I'm sure there will be more down the road. Pedal box rebuild it is! Thanks for the advice!!!!

Lordy, lordy, what have I gotten myself into? But this is fun (so far). Very satisfying, I must admit!

Pull the WHAT Laverne? She doesn't use more than 1/2 a quart every 500 miles so I gotta think that one through real well! (Actually, I pulled the engine to replace the clutch on my B back in the 60's with fewer tools than I own now with the tub in place. I was REAL stupid back then! But it worked.)

paint and body...paint and body...
efh Ed

Brilliant idea to post the video. Looks like the clutch shaft is pretty tight in the frame bushings, but the brake pedal really and typically sloppy side to side. Replace frame bushings anyway- easy to do. As said above, most likely the shaft will have a lot of wear at the brake pedal area. I replaced my shaft during restoration 3 or so years ago, re-assembled all of the miserable mechanism, and when I put the cover plate on it hit and locked the clutch arm. Either the bend in the new shaft's arm wasn't enough, or the arm was too thick. Had to take the whole thing apart again to fix. The weld from the arm to the shaft broke on my original shaft, so if you have it built up, you may want the shop to touch up the end weld. The new brake pedal bushing will probably be too long- just grind/file the excess length off. The new shaft had no grease hole at all in the area of one of the frame bushings, so atd least make sure all bushing areas are lubricated. George
George Butz

Before you all get crazy on this video thing, remember that some of us are stuck with dialup. I downloaded a video somebody sent me the other day because I really wanted to see it - took almost 2 hours for 4:58min. So I usually just skip them, since it ties up my computer and my phone.

FRM
FR Millmore

Great new use of new technology.

My opiniond: With the body off the car YOU MUST do the bearings!

Last summer I took the TD out for a test drive and noticed the brake pedal almost almost tipped over. I replaced the pedal bushings (and shaft) with the body in place; quite a tough job. It has to be a (relative) snap with the body off.

Regarding the shaft bushings, I think this must be impossible to do once the body is on the frame, so now is the time to do it.

ONE NOTE OF EXTREME CAUTION:
I made the mistake of unnecessarily replacing the pedal spacing washer (Moss 324-430) when there was nothing wrong with the original. The last step was to put the circlip (326-050) on the end of the pedal shaft. It seemed to hold but moments later it popped right off and disappeared in my garage. Turned out that the replacement spacing washer was about 0.002" thicker than the original and this was enough to prevent the circlip from seating properly (although it was close enough that it clipped on).

I was forced to re-do the entire job (not easy with the body in place) and replace the new spacing washer with the old one. That did the trick.

Mark Sherman
1953 TD (supercharged!)
Mark A. Sherman

I feel your pain Fletch. No way could I go back to dial up. In this case, the video showed he clearly has way to much play in the brake pedal to shaft. Something we would otherwise be guessing at by description alone.

LaVerne
LED DOWNEY

Ed - E-mail me at SUfuelpumps@donobi.net and I'll send you some information and modifications I have on the pedal shaft. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Ed,
As Mark said above, as long as you have the body off and floor out, you MUST do the replacement now! It will be soooo much easier now than when the car is together!

Great video,,, it is the first time I was able to open a You Tube here at the office,,, usually they get blocked by our FireWall....

SPW
Steve Wincze

There is a TD ob e-bay now,,220541596920, one of the pictures of the underside of the car shows one of the "last resort" efforts to repair the bushings with the body on!


Steve Wincze

I thought that was accepted practice.


LED DOWNEY

Got it guys! The pedal box work will probably start this week - depending on how the other "projects" go. It sounds like a good "winter" job - too cold here to roll chasis outside to clean it. My wife thanks you all for keeping me "busy" as well.

Fletch (FR) in PA - yea I remember dial-up also. If I were you I would head to a public library if possible to do computer. Free and fast! I agree with Laverne - once you use dsl or modem you would never turn back to the phone. If you're out in the country somewhere maybe that HughsNet satellite service?? Don't know the cost however.

David, you have email.

Ed
efh Ed

Library not open when I am! And no food or coffee or smokes, or the reference books/parts I live on.
Satellite very expensive, and what really irks is they offer great promotions but the fine print is basically you agree to anything they damn please after a few months.
Got a DSL line a mile N of me.
Got cable a half mile S.
Got a mysterious fiber optic line running right down the road past the house, a hundred mile loop that was put in for some big users most of which have moved out of the area. Nobody knows who actually owns/controls it, believed to be one of those Enron type deals. The capacity on that line is probably several orders of magnitude greater than the needs of the entire 3 counties it runs through.
GTE installed its first experimental fiber line just down the road from me, but then got eaten in the Verizon creation.
The antitrust FCC/PUC exemption that allowed them to form Verizon (out of GTE & Bell Atlantic) was based on the promise that everybody would have broadband by like 1998. Since I an one of about 10 houses that don't have it locally, last I looked they were saying maybe 2015. And the service on the crappy telephone system has evaporated with the Verizon deal - it took two weeks to get the phones fixed last time they went out, over about half the township. That would include a friend who was old, sick, living alone, and had a heart control computer that was operated remotely by phone - it was two weeks for his phone too! That was not a single point system failure, but many individual ones caused by water in the 1930's heritage lines. There's now one repairman covering about a thousand sq miles of ground.
Adding insult, every month the phone bill tells me to sign up for high speed internet, but when you call them (for idle amusement) they spend a half hour "searching to see if it is available in your area", all the while trying to sell you Direct TV or somesuch. You get to tell them (the PHONE company!) what your phone number is about twenty times in this discussion! It ain't available here!

So, have mercy guys, and at least provide some indication of what your vid link is all about!

FRM
FR Millmore

Fletch, wow! We live in a little town surrounding a ski area (Crested Butte, CO) and have had cable for about 10 years! And we have all the major cell providers (Verizon, ATT, Qwest, etc.) antennas on a ridge behind our house. And the town is having a wifi network installed so visitors can surf anywhere in town for free. I just assumed high speed was everywhere in the world now. My son is serving in Iraq literally living in a "box" in the middle of absolute nowhere and he even has high speed service provided by a private concern for American soldiers (for a price)! We Skype him and do Facebook on a regular basis. Maybe you need to complain to a higher authority somewhere! I'll make sure to include enough text here to keep you interested though.

Regards,
Ed
efh Ed

Ed -
Our local State senator is on the PUC commission, and spends more time fighting about this than everything else put together, and much of the rest fighting to get DMV to do their jobs; here there are no local DMV, everything goes through the state capital, where there are thousands of useless drones getting paid to not do your license plates. We are already paying for the DMV people, the PUC, the FCC and God only knows who else - now we pay the legislators to legislate but they spend all their time fighting their own bureaucracy and riding herd on them, but nothing gets done - our state budget is mandated to be done by 30 June, but didn't get passed 'til November (I think it got passed!).
And I'm in a bowl, so some cell systems work sometimes if you are on the right floor of the house and the moon is right.

I'm done!
FRM
FR Millmore

Gentlemen,

Speaking of state budgets you should be in New York the state that defines the word dysfunctional as far as state government is concerned. On the topic of internet access try the state of Maine where Verizon "sold" their entire operation to Fairpoint. What they did not sell was the backoffice system, rather they sold them an older system which crashed and almost caused Fairpoint to go bankrupt. I had to give up trying to install DSL at my summer cottage last year. Got my fingers crossed for this comming summer.

Cheers,
Jim
James Neel

>Now that you have found the zerk, make sure you put the gun to it at least once a year.

Just for the record, the factory book says grease that zerk every 500 miles (not 5,000 -- five HUNDRED). I guess they knew it was a wear point! ;-)

I recently went through the same repair with my TD. It's a LOT less fun with the body on!
Rob Edwards

Yikes. My sister had the satellite and had a ton of problems, and while better than dial-up is wasn't that fast. Too bad your PSC is weak- a call to ours brings usually gets fast action. The video shows chassis w/o tub, pedal pads removed, and wiggling the pedals in all directions. Tons of side slop in the brake, minimal to none with the clutch. George PS- maybe pester the cable company- ours have franchise area agreements- maybe a local commissioner or someone could help. George
George Butz

Gentlemen,
Okay, I've read the archives on this subject plus Dave's articles on the subject (thanks Dave!). It is indeed a nasty job, even with the tub off!

One thing I don't seem to understand is how you remove the clutch pedal from the car without somehow disconnecting it's attached clutch cable (or rod on later models, I have the older cable version). Can maybe the cable be "loosened" enough somewhere to allow it's connection to the pedal to remain intact whilst the pedal is extracted from the pedal box & shaft? Trying to remove the cotter pin that goes through the clevis pin inside the pedal box first seems IMPOSSIBLE, let alone putting it back together later!

What am I missing?
Thanks,
Ed
efh Ed

Ed,

The pedal shaft has a belcrank at the end. That's where the clutch rod or cable attaches. The clutch pedal clamps tightly to the pedal shaft, with the indent for the fastening bolt providing the location and stablity. The brake pedal floats on the pedal shaft with a separate bushing.

I find it easiest to postion the pedals (with the brake actuation rod already attached to the brake pedal) and spacers in the box and slip the pedal shaft into the pedals. I fit the circlip on the outside of the chasis, and then the bolt and nut to the clutch pedal. I slip the master cylinder into position fitting the brake rod into the cylinder (don't forget the dust cap, I also use silicone grease here in the cap) and tighten the two bolts that hold the MC in place on the chassis side. I fit the clutch rod on the belcrank of the pedal shaft, fit the clevis pin from the outside in, so I can see the cotter pin position, and nurse the cotter in.

Hope this helps,
dave
Dave Braun

Dave, thanks as usual! Your directions I will save to put the thing back together I'm sure. You have also forced me to learn something new! I googled "bellcrank" and now have a new word for parties, etc. Thanks for that as well - I didn't have a clue what a "bellcrank" was (something the master used to ring the servants bell in the basement-cool!)

I'm trying to take the pedals out, not reinstall them. (Keep in mind my MC is still installed and I had not wanted to drain the brake fluid, etc., to remove it.) I just can't get my big fingers in the pedal box enough to reach that cotter pin safely. How do you do that? I thought I could loosen the clutch cable enough to wiggle the pedal shaft out enough to reach that cotter pin and the bellcrank easier. I know this is confusing and appreciate your patience.

Ed
efh Ed

actually, thinking about it, the clutch pedal has a key to insert as well to hold its position... you'll know when you take it apart. As I mentioned on the video site, you may need to have the pedal shaft built up to fit the bushings as the shaft can wear a lot, especially with the play evidenced by the brake pedal in your video.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Ed, Head to the liquor store..this is about a 12 pack job. If you are one of those people who put a dollar in the jar every time you cuss.. then put in about 50 bucks. Keep a twenty around just in case. Gather up a good pair of needle nosed pliers, a wrench (I think it's 1/4" W), same size socket ratchet with extension, a flash light and a couple of flat blade screw drivers.

Have a good look at what is in there while comsuming the first beer.

First we tackle the clevis pin. May want beer another first.

Sounds like the cotter pin opening on the inside of the assembly so use the pliers to rotate the pin ( from the side of the box) until the two legs of the cotter pin are on the top side of the clevis pin. If you happen to have an angled dike cutter then cut the leggs off and push the remainder of the pin out the bottom. You may have to rotate the clevis and pull from the top with the pliers. If you don't have the cutters then make a note where you are with the jar. and attempt to straighten the leggs of the cotter pin with the combination of the pliers and screw drivers. After about 20 minutes or so I'd recomend you stop and have another beer while noteing the ledger of the jar. Once you get the cotter pin out then remove the clevis pin. It's more than likely well groved and will require you to rock things back and forth as you pull it out. Have another beer you've earned it.

With the pliers, attempt to remove the return spring off the bottom of the brake pedal coming in from the side of the box( your gonna be down a few dollars already) don't worry about getting it off the box.
Once you get that off it's probably time for another celebratory beer (small victory you know).



Use the wrench and socket to remove the fixing bolt from the clutch pedal. Remove the grease zerk from the end of the shaft. Remove the circlip from the end of the shaft. Use an appropriate size drift ( socket and extension in my world) and drive the shaft in towards the transmission side of the car. Keep the clutch arm of the shaft pointed towards the lower forward corner of the the box. Have another beer and check the jar you should be just about at zero.
Use the flash light to gather up the pieces that fell apart when the shaft came out and put evry thing on the work bench for further renewal. Have some more beer.

Good luck.

LED DOWNEY

Not sure what happened but I lost a paragraph.
After you get the brake return spring off you will have to remove the brake clevis pin. Same routine as the clutch.
LED DOWNEY

I would replace the cable when it is apart unless it is very new. Otherwise you will have to go through the cotter pin/clevis removal again when it breaks, likely with the car assembled which is worse! With all the parts clean and repaired or new, it is really a lot easier to re-assemble. It would have been so nice if you had a fixed shaft with bushed pedals, like on a TC. They weren't thinking when this was designed. George
George Butz

SUCCESS!! YouTube video to follow proving that it can be done!

Thanks everyone, especially LaVerne. Too early for the beer here but I owe you a 6-pack next time we meet!

Ed
efh Ed

This thread was discussed between 24/01/2010 and 27/01/2010

MG TD TF 1500 index

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