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MG TD TF 1500 - Please forgive me for starting another ZDDP thread

I sent an email to Castrol Norway yesterday asking about the ZDDP content in their SAE 20w50 multigrade "classic" engine oil.

They answered me today stating that this oil contains 800 ppm/0,08% of ZDDP.

Is this sufficient to protect the tappets in an XPEG engine being driven by a a not very aggressive gentleman who is one year older than the engine?

If not, would a bottle of STP for oil do the trick ?

Regards,

Jan
Jan Kristoffersen

I believe that .12% is considered the 'safe' level. Bud
Bud Krueger

Indeed, 1200-1600ppm is considered ideal for most classic car engines.
Steve S

Which means that the most expensive classic oil in the market simply will not do the job? Old mr. Wakefield himself probably was not consulted when they cut back on the ZDDP...
Jan Kristoffersen

I've also been looking into this and its a minefield.

Moss recommend/sell Penrite and Millers oils here in the UK. Penrite Classic 20/50 has 1080ZN/980P. I couldn't find out what Millers has they just say its adequate. The highest I've found is Comma Sonic 2000/1900. It seems to be a lot higher than any of the others I've found. The more expensive Comma Classic only has 700/600. Apparently they sell this oil to the Halfords brand in the UK. Seems odd that the cheaper Comma oil has a higher level, you get what you pay for??

My engine builder recommended Castrol GTX 15W40. At 1035/930 it seems as good as Penrite but cheaper, in the UK anyway. I e-mailed Castrol Technical Services and they said,

"The levels of ZDDP in Castrol GTX 15W-40 should be perfectly suitable for use in your MG engine. The oils that would give most cause for concern are the latest oils designed for use with diesel particulate filters and which can have significantly lower levels of traditional additives including ZDDP."

There's an interesting article here.

http://www.mgb-stuff.org.uk/enginetext.htm#oils

Let me know what you conclude, I'd be interested.

AJ
A R Jones

I don't know what you guys have in the UK, but there are several oils on the market over here that are designed for classic cars. Even a couple of the boutique oils like Valvoline VR1 have the necessary levels of ZDDP for our cars. My choice is Classic Car Motor Oil. It has 1600ppm ZDDP and proper levels of other often ignored substances such as ash content. It isn't cheap, around the same price as most full synthetics, but I feel it's worth an extra $10 per oil change to use something that could give me another 20-30K miles out of each engine.
Steve S

As Jan asked I'm curious if a bottle of STP does the thrick.

And if it does, which STP contains ZDDP?
Willem vd Veer

MGA Guru Barney's take on the issue-

"Bear in mind that ZDDP is not the only anti-wear additive available, so removal of some of the ZDDP from engine oil does not necessarily make your flat tappet engine into junk. The critical period for cam and tappets is during the initial break in run, and perhaps through the first oil change. This is when it may benefit from elevated levels of ZDDP in the oil. Once the cam has survived the initial run in, and maybe the first 1000 miles, it should do quite well with modern motor oil."

http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/engine/of104a.htm
Geoff Ev

Jan and others,

I prefer to approach this from another direction.

The Zinc component of standard oils was banned by the US EPA because, when the oil vapour was introduced to the catalytic converter, it emitted a dangerous vapour.

Whats more, Yank engines had advanced to the point that most valve lifters were no longer harmed with the absence of zinc. Furthermore, today, most modern engines are OHC.

So the Americans banned outright the ZDDP component in standard oils. However in the EU, things may be different. Certinly worth checking. You may still have ZDDP in your oils and not know it.

But don't be naïve. The absence of ZDDP in English cars WILL harm your tappets. So we have to find substitutes. I've looked at everything, and I've settled into the standard Castrol 20W50, to which I add a half btl of STP Oil Treatment.

This is the most cost-effective means for me, and still keep a working specification.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

Hi
From the thread it looks like most of you use 20w50 oil?
At a local clubmeeting last year a Castrol representative recommmended w30 oil for the XPAG. He claimed that the 20w50 oil is to be uses in newer engines like from early sixties?

rgds Torben
Torben Olesen

This has been posted before, but here's a link to the most in-depth and informative article I've seen on the issue:
http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/tech/oil/index.html
Rob Edwards

The original specification for most climates was 30W and many people still use that. However oil technology has come a very long way since then, and multi-viscosity oils are beneficial in many ways for all types of engines. The friction and viscosity modifiers allow the oil to act thinner in cold weather which reduces wear during warm-up. This can only be a good thing, in my opinion!
Steve S

Excuse my ignorance, but am I interpeting this repetive thread in that the ZDDP issue is moot if you add 1/2 bottle of STP versus paying inflated $ or spending hours searching for "vintage" classic oil
Jon Levine

Well, STP does not declare the ZDDP content in their products, only that it is "sufficient".

The in depth review from the Corvette guy argues that 800 ppm was the standard content of ZDDP in the oils of the fifties, so maybe I will stick to my Castrol classic 20w50 after all.

Regards,

Jan
Jan Kristoffersen

I owned a "T" series in the 50's and we figured that the engine was good for only 20 - 30,000 miles between rebuilds. When I bought my first MG it had 55K miles.

When I tore that MG down, the cam had two lobes that were worn down to almost round. After the rebuild it was a different car. Wish I still had it.

It's replacement is a fine car but doesn't have the memories that would come with owning a car from that long ago. Sigh.
Bob
Bob Jeffers

If you're not sure about STP, you can get a ZDDP additive from AC Delco, distributed at GM Dealers. Part # 992869 It's not expensive.
Peter Pope

I buy the standard STP Oil Treatmet in the blue plastic bottle for about $2.50 each at a US WalMart nearby

On the product I buy, it does state that there is Zinc Dialkyd DiothioPhosphate, but the quantity is not mentioned, and I have written to STP to get an answer.

When I posted the message, I got a reply stating that I would have an answer in 24 business hours. That was last week!

I think Jan makes the point " ... STP does not declare the ZDDP content in their products, only that it is "sufficient"; and that's probably all I can reasonnably expect STP to advise ... if ever!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

The answer from STP. This should put the issue to bed - finally !!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mr. Gordon Clark
Rockburn, QC
Canada

Reference Number: 8004550

Dear Mr. Clark,

Thank you for contacting us about your STP Oil Treatment.

Our STP Oil Treatment contains the zinc anti-wear agent ZDDP. This ingredient was once found in most motor oils. If you add one 15 ounce bottle to four to five quarts of oil, it will provide the same protection as the older motor oils once available.

Many classic car owners with flat tappet cam motors use our product for this reason.

Other than this information, the formula is proprietary. I apologize if this doesn't answer your questions.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Again, thank you contacting us.

Sincerely,

Amelia Miller
Consumer Response Representative
Consumer Services

Did you know: STP stands for Scientifically Tested Petroleum.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A Clark

- "If you add one 15 ounce bottle to four to five quarts of oil, it will provide the same protection as the older motor oils once available."

How would they know what oil you're starting with? Sounds like marketing hype to me. Personally I don't care for 3rd party oil additives, especially STP for reasons I need not get into here.

The way I see it, motor oils are carefully formulated by research teams with tens of million dollars behind their research. Every ingredient is measured to give proper protection while allowing other compounds to do their job as well. The more components you add, the less the lubricating agents are allowed to do their job. Too much of anything, even ZDDP, can shorten the life of an engine.

I feel that it's always best to use an oil designed for your needs than to buy something without the properties you need and dump a bunch of unknown chemicals into it in hopes of striking a magic formula that outperforms the chemists' own efforts.
Steve S

>...the same protection as the older motor oils once available.

WHICH oils? Which brand, which decade, etc. Without numbers STP's answer is meaningless....

I'm with Steve S -- no way a "backyard blender" is going to be able properly balance everything.
Rob Edwards

I totally agree with Steve. We are not chemists and don't wear white lab coats. We just want the best for our little engines.... Adding "expensive stuff" to cheap motor oil so your engine doesn't "grenade" just doesn't make any sense to me. Especially when I read how long it took to re$$$tore your car in make shift paint booths, disassembly of the car in your cellar and the nicely restored dash is now on the fireplace mantle, and not seeing your wife and kids for months staying long hours in the night in the shed in the back with no heat in winter blasting your metal....

Oil is the blood of your engine. It's been posted that I've read on here Red Line oils are great for the clutch and the rear end. (Red Line MTL and 75W-90). Why not put Red Line in all three cavities and call it a day with 20w-50 Red Line Sythentic which is packed with ZDDP (check their website) in the engine and call it a day??

I've been using Red Line for years in my Harleys without any problems. And trust me when I tell you that my 124 cubic inch high performance motor gets real hot idling in traffic and I ride it like I stole it. Proof is in the pudding when I get my oil analyzed and it shows I can go more miles with the oil if I want to and no evidence of engine wear. Red Line is so good that the HD dealerships are even selling it competing with their HD Syn3 motor oil.

And don't believe the myths about bearing skate, it's too slippery, and it will create flat spots on the bearings. Simple logic that if it was too slippery there wouldn't be any friction and it would be completely impossible to flatten out. HD "stealers" were famous for this hysteria because they were selling their HD non synthetic motor dino oil at the time and would threaten their oil sales. Sure enough, their tune changed years later when they came out with HD SYN3 motor oil and started filling new engine cases straight from the factory.

For those in the North America, I order my Red Line oil from Racer Parts Wholesale and there is free shipping over $100 dollars and I get the order shipped to my garage in a few days.

Red Line is going in my TF when it is finally done.

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/category/Red_Line_Oil2


Frank


Frank Cronin

I did some checking a few years ago. This is what determined.

Recommended Motor Oils for The MG

Castrol: Syntec 20W50
Valvoline: Racing oil, VR-1, 20W50
Shell: Rotella HD diesel/automotive, 15W40
Pennsoil Racing Oil, 20W50
Mobile: Mobile 1, 15W50
Delvac Diesel, 15W40, or 5W40

I use the Valvoline racing oil and have not had any problems.

Frank Grimaldi
Frank Grimaldi

Frank just looked at website which oil is the 20-50 "synthetic" didn't seem to notice.
Jon Levine

Gord,

I thought STP was Stay Together Please. Learn something every day.

Best regards,

Jim Haskins
J. M. Haskins

Jon -

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/RedLine20W50MotorcycleOil/Motorcycle_Oils
Frank Cronin

This thread was discussed between 12/03/2012 and 19/03/2012

MG TD TF 1500 index

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