MG TD TF 1500 Possible new option for TD front disk brakes? BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net

MG TD TF 1500 - Possible new option for TD front disk brakes?

I am attaching a parts list so all can see whats in the Kit. The calipers are listed as being off an MGB. I suspect the wheel hubs are off something else, unknown, perhaps with longer wheel studs, because there is a 6 mm spacer to move the wheels out 6 mm on a side. The shipping packaging left a lot to be desired. The container was quite beat up. No parts were lost, and it does not appear that any damage was done. The calipers were in separate boxes, inside the outer container with some Poly sheets surrounding the outer periphery of the box. No shock packing on the top or bottom of the master container. The calipers had a lot of free room inside their respective containers probably unseen by NTG. This allowed the calipers to bang about quite a bit. I have appraised NTG of this. There are no instructions as was mentioned. However it is fairly apparent where things go. I have an issue with one part. I will show it in the next tab. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

This appears to be a locking tab. On the parts list I "THINK" its "Locktab Caliper"? I have no idea how or where it goes. Open for suggestions. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

We are looking at disc brake options for 5-stud TD drums and hubs also. The Wilwood kit is nice IMO because it uses tapered bearings, a lighter vented drilled rotor and has 4-piston aluminum calipers for cooling. Un-drilled rotors are available as wanted. Both kits install without modifications and can be easily converted back to stock. No harm no foul. The "to-your-door" price for the Wilwood kit is $1249 with un-drilled rotors. Both kits widen the wheel base slightly (0.375-inch Wilwood to 0.500-inch NTG per side) because the rotor are close to the tie rod ends. Wilwood can also supply (i) a proportional valve to ratio front and rear braking and (ii) drain back valves for the stock original master cylinder which is mounted lower than the calipers.

WHTroyer

Second picture:

WHTroyer

Jim, Here's what comes with the Morris Minor kit. It is a small rubber seal and is buried. I didn't even see it the first time when I took the cylinder apart and of course the brakes did bind. It is a lot more difficult to remove the master cylinder on a Morris Minor. In fact it is one of the worst jobs to have to do. The TD is child's play in comparison. Consult NTG though-it is their kit but I imagine you will have to remove it. It is also known as the valve cup seal and is item 11 on sketch M2 in the WSM. Regards Declan

Declan Burns

Three things are slowing progress. 1) There will be a few warm days left this year and I do want to view the foliage while tooling down the road wit the top down. 2) mu son who lives 60 miles away has not brought back the hub puller. 3) While the kit does come with wheel bearings, it does not contain the distance piece. Since I cant pull the old hubs yet. I cant assemble the new ones. PART 1. I ordered up two new distance pieces from Abingdon. They arrived today.($44.25 with shipping) I had greased up the new bearings with Full Synthetic wheel bearing grease two days ago and I decided to start. The new hubs are VERY nicely machined from Aluminum. (Upper left frame of the picture) The bearings are a light press fit. I lightly oiled the bearing wells with MT-90 and went to the Hydraulic press. Bearing careful to align the bearing with the hub I pressed the small outer bearing in first. DO NOT USE EXCESSIVE FORCE. JUST FIND BOTTOM AND STOP. Be sure the socket is just touching the puter race, Not the bearings or inner race. (Left: Second Frame down) Next the larger (rear) bearing needs to be pressed in. BUT the distance piece must go between them> I visually aligned the parts for the first hub, BUT as you might expect,the distance piece shifted a bit. I was able to correct its position and the next time I inserted a deep socket into the front bearing before pressing to keep things aligned. (left(bottom Frame) The studs stick out past the front hub boss. You do not want to press on the studs. I used a scrap triangle of aluminum to lift the boss off the press. (Left third down) Again I used some large sockets which bare on the Outer race only to press the bearing into a lightly oiled socket. (Right: Second frame down) The rear bearing with the properly aligned distance piece is in the top. That very small lip is for the grease seal. I am not sure its correct but the seal sticks up about 1/32 past the boss. We will see. Next step is to bolt on the Discs. There are 4 counter-bores in the hub. (Left top). The bolts have shoulders on them. They are UNF 3/8. In the kit there are 16 of them. $ for each wheel Hub and Disc assembly and 4 for each caliper adapter/holder. They come with a Split lock washer and a nut. I decided to orientate the bolts so the nut and lock washer were in the counter-bore. However I did not like the split lock washer. It was thin, lightly plated, and I did not like it being next to un-treated Aluminum. I have sat through too many MDR's (mechanical design reviews) to let that one go. Also the bottom of the CB was Soooo! nicely machined I could not bring myself to gouge it with a lock washer. I went down to the local ACE and got 16 SS flat washers. (Another ($9) They were 7/8 OD. The CB is 1". They fir Fine. I already had 3/8 split lock washers. You will need two 9/16 deep sockets and drives to do this. I tightened by hand but tomorrow I will torque to 30 Ft-lbs. Note that in bottom Right I have just about 3 threads showing. Even with the flat washer and the thicker split lock washer This is just about MIL-Spec. Total time so far is around 3 or 4 hours. Hub puller should be here Tuesday or Wednesday, but I need a color tour first. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Jim, You can do a search for "residual brake line valves" or go to a brake supplier like Wilwood. The drums require a 10 psi valve to counter their springs (keep them from retracting fully). Disc brake require about 2 psi to keep the pads off the rotor. This will give a more solid pedal. Regards, Bill

WHT

Second Picture"

WHT

Third Picture:

WHT

Need some help. The weather turned cold, so I put the TD up on stands and started the installation. I stripped of the front drum brakes and cleaned everything up. I put the assembled disc and hub on the Right side. The disc is hitting the tie-rod ends on turns. Communication with NTG has been very very good. They are talking to engineering just now. I had thought, perhaps, someone in the group, might have some insight. if the tie-rod and ends is tilted forward there is clearance. However it returns to the "tilted to the rear" position and hard turns, But I do note that the steering Arm (Moss 264-040/050) is “bent” to the right toward the disc. I believe this is correct from looking at Dave's pictures. I think they could be swapped but I don't think there is enough adjustment on the tie-rod ends to accommodate this. NTG suggests they may be bent? I am using the older (original) style tie-rod ends with the metal shields. Suggestions? Help! Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Dave: I think you may have hit it. I, first, put a level on the front bumper. As noted the car is on jack stands and I wanted to see if the car was level. Yes; sort of,the bubble touched right side line. Then using a square wit a level I compared how the tie-rod ends look. In the picture I arranged the square/level so its level. I see the Left (drivers) side end not having much of any twist. I see the right side as having a slight twist and in the direction to give some rubbing. Note I tried to make the square bubble as level as possible while juggling a camera and the level. Based on that I will mount the left side disc and see if there is clearance. If there is I will attempt to "de-twist" the arm. Jim N; I need to mount the left side disc to put the tires on the car. So before any "de-twisting" I will try your suggestion. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Using Dave Hill's suggestion and method, the problem is gone See attached collage. Leaving the left wheel on the ground I put a jack stand under the right, offending, wheel. I removed the tie-rod end. I put a 12 adjustable across the steering arm Flats and with a floor jack twisted the steering arm. (Top frame.) It twisted quite easily and it was done cold. I went from 5 to 6 to 7 cranks on the jack handle until I got a suitable gap between the disc and the rod end. The second and third frame show clearance on far right and far left positions with the tie rod rotated to the rear of the car, as close to the disc as possible. As soon as the new rubbers arrive I can mount the calipers and start bleeding. I will now need to reset toe-in. Thanks to all for your comments. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

After 6" to 8" of interruption from mother earth, I finally got all of the assembly done. Now for some bleeding and we are through. I need to write up the second half of the effort and post it. Give me a few days. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Assembly Part2, First of 3 posts. With the preliminary preparation work done Its time to proceed. Place blocks behind the rear wheels. Secure the emergency brake. Jack the car up and install two jack stands. As shown in the top-left frame, remove the dust cover. Next relax the brake shoes. This is accomplished by aligning the hole in the drum at (around) 10:00 or 4:00 o’clock. With a light you will see a SLOTTED STUD. Rotate drum so the stud in in the middle of the hole. Then by inserting a large screw driver into the hole in the drum, and rotating the screw driver CCW, there will be a series of clicks. Rotate as far as you can easily go. (See top right frame). Then, remove the cotter pin on the brake drum/wheel bearing securing nut and remove the nut (1” Socket). Save the nuts for the future. NOTE: The RIGHT-side nut uses RIGHT hand threads and the LEFT-side nut uses LEFT hand threads. Do not get the nuts mixed up. You will most likely need a puller to remove the brake drums, hub and bearings. The lower left frame shows mine. It makes an easy job of getting the bearings off the stub axle shaft. One note, Mine has a center, the axle does not have a center hole. To avoid dulling the center, I have added a couple of washers between the screw and the stub axle. You can just see them in the picture. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Second section Part 2 With the drum off I removed the backing plate assembly, shoes, springs, brake cylinders and hoses as an assembly. It’s held on with 4 BSF 3/8” bolt. (Bottom right frame of the first group of photos.). There is a nut and lock washer on the back. You will need a spanner/wrench along with the socket. Here is a hint on removing the old brake hose. ( Top left frame of the second collage). Start by leaving the large nut securing the hose to the bracket tight. Try to loosen the brake line fitting, (1/4” BSF). If the small nut turns, without twisting the tubing, good. ( A small amount of Dot 5 sprayed on the nut may help.) If so back off the tubing fitting nut one or more turns. This may cause the brake line to move back. Then loosen the large nut holding the hose to the bracket. This will relieve the pressure on the metal line. Work the line and the hose fittings until the hose is clear. Leave the large nut and lock washer fall down the brake line. They will be reused and that’s a good place to store them. The flange on my stub axle had paint stuck to it from the old backing plate. I cleaned it up with a small wire brush on a drill, along with the bearing surfaces on the axle. (Top left frame in the second Collage) The special caliper adapter plates are now attached. (Lower left frame on the second collage.) They are not marked L or right. The proper position puts the Caliper to the rear and slightly tilted clockwise, (on the right side of the car, vis on the left). The plates are secured with, provided AF bolts, lock washers and nuts. Not shown, but I did add a thin SS washer under the bolt head and silicon grease on the shank to limit corrosion. I also use 30-Lb-Ft of torque. (In the frame, the caliper is just there to see how it fits. It should not be there just now.) Also note that there is a thick spacer that must go on before mounting the Disc/hub/bearing assembly. Next the Disc and hub/bearing is placed on the stub. Insure you have the spacer in place. This should be wiggled while pushing in to allow the stub to extend enough to screw on the axle nut and washer one or two turns. You can then use a socket (1” AF) to tighten the nut. ( Remember RH on Right side, LH on Left side). The WSM says 50 Lb-Ft but the castellations need to align with the cotter pin hole in the axle, It could be a bit more or a bit less. For those of use used to the, relative, ease of cotter pin removal on drum brakes, These are tight. The pin needs to be turned flat and lightly tapped with a punch to get it past the lip. Bending over the split end is also difficult. (Bottom left frame of the second collage.) Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Second Section: Part 3 Next, we assemble the Caliper. Just as LaVern did I heated the copper washers to anneal them. I used a BurnsOmatic torch with the washers on a steel plate and heated until the copper discolored. Shown in the upper left frame of the third collage. (Oh yes I did replace the bleeder with a self bleeder having an internal valve. The caliper is secured with two, supplied, AF bolts that I torqued to 30 Lb-Ft. ( top right frame of third collage).The open end of the brake hose is now fed through the securing bracket hole. HAND start the fitting on the metal line. If it does not start easily and screw in several turns by hand, you may be cross threaded and you should start over. You can now slide up the large toothed lock washer and nut (15/16 AF) thread them on, by HAND, and then tighten. Finally tighten the metal brake line fitting, ¼ BSF. The, supplied, brake shoes are now easily inserted. There are, supplied, retaining springs and cotter pins. You may need to fiddle with the springs to get them seated properly. (Lower left frame) That’s it except for bleeding, which remains to be done. Let me know if I forgot anything. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

Oh yes, I forgot. Holding the caliper are two AF bolts. These do not have lock washers. There are, supplied, Two dumbbell shaped pieces that go under the heads of the bolts, and then, after torquing, the tabs are bent over, to prevent the bolts from unwinding. Jim B.

JA Benjamin

This thread was discussed between 01/10/2018 and 13/02/2019

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