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MG TD TF 1500 - rear TD brake drum removal

Hi, could someone please refresh my memory. To remove a rear TD brake drum does one have to remove the castellated axle shaft nut or not? (I'm seeing a dampness behind the backing plate I should investigate.) My nut is pretty beat up, hate to deal with it again!
Ed

efh Haskell

Yes you do.
L E D LaVerne

Thanks. Maybe a little dampness is not such a bad thing, eh?
efh Haskell

Not a bad thing as long as you can identify the dampness as NOT from brake fluid !!

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Ed, and handbrake off and brake shoe adjuster turned completely left makes it easier to slide the drum of the brakeshoes and later on again. Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

Steve, only one way I can think of to do that is to pull the drum and look. What a pain! Any other suggestions w/b appreciated! MC is still full, no drips on floor. All 3 other wheels are dry as a bone.

Huib, good points, thanks.
efh Haskell

How bad is the nut to make it such a pain to get off???
STEVE WINCZE

It could be the half shaft,rear hub seal allowing a small seep of axle fluid!
You have no option it has to come off!
And if the brake cyl looks ok then pull the halfshaft and inspect the rear hub seal.
And replace the castellated nut while its apart!
Pilkie

Easiest way to remove the nut , is with an impact wrench....After the nut is off (lefty loosey, righty tighty), pulling the hub, may require a large , three-legged , puller, depending on when the last time it was off. The puller needs to bolt to three lugs, with the screw pressing against the end of the axle.
Do NOT try to pry it off.
Edward
Edward Wesson 52TD

Ed, as you may know Edward's hint about direction of rotation to tighten or loosen a nut only applies to right hand thread. Regards, tom
tom peterson

Good thing since both rear axle nuts are right hand thread!
Dave Braun

Ed, you can usually rent a good puller for hubs from a large rental outfit, if you don't have one. To expensive to buy for a one time use. It's the safest way to remove the hubs. NO HAMMERS!!!
Paul sr

Okay, so both rear's are loosened by turning the nut counter clockwise, correct?
That being said, I always thought the reason for all this was so a nut on a wheel rotating "forward" most of the time would be "self tightening" rather than "self loosening". So would not the right side be left hand thread?? Or am I wrong about the reasoning?
Ed
efh Haskell

Ed, your reasoning is correct, and some vehicles used to be set up this way (notably, old Chrysler vehicles.) The use of cotter pins or other locking methods renders the point moot however.
Corey Pedersen 1951 TD #7169

Yes Ed, that is correct. Interestingly enough the right front hub nut is left hand thread. Had an old Dodge van in my younger days for a short spell. It had left hand lug bolts on one side. Wife has a couple of GMC/Izuzu diesels that have left hand lug nuts that I reminded the tire shop of that fact when she had some new tires put one it a few years back . They of course paid me no attention and twisted off two studs and had to replace them. It wasn't the first time. She no longer uses that chain store.
L E D LaVerne

LaVerne
I usually defer to your experience on things, but my TD,
front right axle, is a right-handed thread.....
Either that or it magically came off going in the wrong direction! And went back on , likewise....
To be even more clear, it came off counter-clockwise, and went back on , clockwise.
One case where "ignorance was bliss"!
Edward
Edward Wesson 52TD

I'm getting old Edward...maybe I'm confused..maybe not...I'm not sure...I think I'm confused. :-) My bad...it's the left hand front that is left hand thread.
L E D LaVerne

Makes sense, as we don't want the front unscrewing at these breakneck speeds...do we?
So are you sure about the driver side?
Seems like they would have done the same on the rear...
Glad it came up, since I would have wondered why I broke the driver-side axle, trying to get the nut off.
Edward
Edward Wesson 52TD

Yep I'm as sure as I can be these days. I would just guess that the rear axles being interchangeable from side to side would be a cost cutting measure to keep from making them side specific where as the fronts stubs are not. But you would think if it's good enough for the back end then why not the front as well and save the cost of keeping left hand nuts in inventory.
L E D LaVerne

I think it had to do with what happened if the bearing seized or spun. The rears are splined of course. With the front, LH thread on the left and vice-versa, if a bearing siezed and/or spun, it would tend to tighten the nut. Remember there is no castleated retainer washer or groove in the spindle with a matching tongue on the washer like modern cars. George
George Butz

Status:
Ok, thanks guys. I just got the brake drum off fairly easy! Yea. However, looks like my rebuilt (by me about 2k miles ago) cylinder has seen better days (see pix below)? Funny stuff, feels more like "grease" than Dot 5 but what else could it be?? Before I order a new cylinder, any comments? Not shown, but the other side (with the bleeder) is clean and dry.

My new shoes in the picture are dry except for the small section in the picture. I think I'm ok to just clean it off, yes? The WSM says something about that being ok at times. What product would you recommend as a cleaner?


efh Haskell

Another shot in the vertical orientation...

efh Haskell

Just a thought, but could that stuff be "rubber" from inside the cylinder? (Moss rubber horror stories???). I am using Dot 5, fyi.
Ed
efh Haskell

Ed - Probably not rubber, just a leaky cylinder.

Hint - use a stick between the steering wheel and the brake pedal to hold the brake pedal about a quarter of the way down before you remove the brake line from the wheel cylinder. This will block the relief hole in the master cylinder and fluid will not drain out through the open line. I did this while replacing the rear axle on our TD this winter. The brake line was open for at least a month and I didn't loose a drop of fluid. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Selftightening-non-selfloosening, the difference for me is that on the front wheels, the nuts stay where they are: they do not rotate with the wheel and that is why in case by whatever cause (f.i. a blocking/slipping bearing) they would show a tendency to move with the wheel (in common driving direction) that the nut would fasten itself rather than start turning loose.
On the rear wheels, the nuts turn always with the wheels and axles so, no movements there that would give them any tendency to go anywhere. And the pin will act as safety lock. Greetings, Huib
Huib Bruijstens

If you are going to use Dave's suggestion about holding the brake pedal, (first time I heard of this suggestion) I believe he is talking about 1/4 of the free travel,,, A full 1/4 of the total brake travel would be quite a mess at the fitting being removed.

When removing the shoes, I always wrap the wheel cylinders with rubber bands to keep them together during the repair,,,,

SPW

STEVE WINCZE

As the rear hub is splined it makes no difference whether left or right handed thread, (all TD/TF halfshafts have RH threads). Any relevant movement between axle and hub is both ways through acceleration and decceleration. Any movement is quickly noticed by a clunk. Don't forget to torque up to 150 Lbs/foot + next split pin hole.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Huib and Ray, that logic makes sense, however that theory goes out the window when you add wire wheel knock offs into the equation. Further thoughts?
L E D LaVerne

Hi LaVerne,
that is why we grease only the splines and NOT the tapers and also check regularly.If you hear the clunk it is already too late and your nice new wires are already destroying themselves.
I went through all of this in the 50's & 60's when wheels were easy to come by via scrapyards. When I moved on to new cars in late 60's I always specified disc wheels on my midgets.
Of course when the Midget was ruined by the rubber bumper monstrosity I went back to the TF.(disc wheel)
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

efh
That residue does not look like Dot 5 (which is purple in color)...It does look like grease to me....
That is not to say that your slave is not leaking, but it's hard to believe that the residue is from Dot 5....
I'm suspecting that some of the axle grease has spun up into the brake drum....
Looking forward to what you find, when you take the piston out of the slave.
Edward
Edward Wesson 52TD

Ray I understand the logic of the spines but not the threads being left hand on only the front axle when if clearly needed on the knock offs. If the cotter pin arrangement is good enough for the rear axle, then why not the front. The logic that the spinning rear axle negates the need for a left hand thread nut doesn't hold water when applied to the knock offs. Somebody educate me here.
L E D LaVerne

Just got the cylinder off. My new brake shoes are indeed ruined upon close exam...crap! I'll start a new thread when I take the cylinder apart. This thread is getting a bit off...
Ed
efh Haskell

Hi LaVerne,
I agree that it makes no sense L or R for the rear knock offs but does for the front for braking loads.
It also makes no sense for disc wheeled Rollers and Bentleys from the 40's to have left handed lug nuts on the LH side.
Also years ago my TF failed it's MOT (statutory safety test) because my wheel nuts (lug) were on back to front? I had to take one off to satisfy them.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

This thread was discussed between 01/04/2013 and 04/04/2013

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