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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Replacing XPAG with a Datsun 210

I'm considering: replace my XPAG with a rebuilt Datsun 210 engine and transmission. I have the TD2 engine with 8 inch clutch... transmission shifts like glass. Engine runs smoothly and always starts. I may install my old XPAG on an engine stand and keep it for a spare.
My XPAG leaks,(has just started smoking some when it warms up) noisy lifters, revs too high even @ 50mph.
I have an entire Datsun 210 with great running gear.
Anyone made this swap before? What are the pros and cons?
This TD is strictly a driver.. right hand drive #9747 and never will be a show concours entry... just a 34000 mile old 51 TD that will be more reasonable to drive with an updated engine and five speed.

Thanks for your input

Sid
Sid Orr

I would consider the 4:30 gears first, then a 5 speed before going to the Datsun... assume you own the Datsun now and that makes it more attractive financially?
I just always think of the 'Autotrader' ad... "MG-TD, drives great, Datsun/Volvo engine"... Just seems wrong somehow.
(this from someone who would put an MGB engine in in a minute if the XPAG went south)!
gblawson - TD#27667

You will destroy the value of the car, and in my opinion for precious little gain. The 210 engine is not particularly fast or strong. Also the first and reverse gears go like clockwork at 125,000 miles (I owned 2 that did this) . I bought these cars as winter beaters while going to college in the northeast. I should also think parts would be getting scarce for these cars.

Parts for the MG are very cheap compared to modern cars, and readily available.

I put the MGA 4.3 differential gears in mine and drive on the freeway at 68mph every day. If your push rods are extremely noisy try STP oil treatment or use an oil with a lot of zddp in it like Valvoline racing.

The smoke could be a valve job, which isn't going to break the bank either. Might change the rings at the same time.

O'connor classics can do an exchange on the axle with the 4.3 differential. That is what I did.

http://www.oconnorclassics.com/

regards,
Larry
Larry Ayres

Personally I think that a TD is a unique kind of car and that the XPAG is the "correct" engine for it. If your engine gives you problems, cheer up, it can always be adjusted and fixed. I have had many problems, mostly caused by my recklessness in playing with the engine, but got everything back in order, and the car pulls nicely. I am considering installing an overdrive on it, which has been modified to fit.

I am not agsinst modifications and I have done quite a few on my TD, but I draw the line at where the feel of the car would change. It needs the XPAG to stay the way it should.

Of course everybody is entitled to his/her own opinion!

Denis
TD, March 1950
Denis L Baggi

Sid,

You have been given some sage advice here.

First, transplanting the Datsun engine will, as Larry has so aptly pointed out, destroy the value of the car.

Most mods we make to our T's are not seen but rather, felt; keeping the car's original appearance. This includes modern components of the engine internals, a (numerically) lowered cwp, solid state ignition, extractor exhaust, etc.

If you have a complete 210 gearbox, then you are sitting on gold, as the supply has virtually dried up.

As Gord L and Larry have suggested, a change of cwp to 4.3 (ex-MGA) is a good start, particularly for a TD which started life with a real stump-puller 5.125, and the TF was marginnaly better at 4.875. The 4.3 will absolutely transform the car. Find someone who has made the change and try it.

If you still want more leisurely cruising in your TD, first make sure you have a good strong engine (well-assembled, well-balanced, + H4 SUs) as the effective much-lowered final drive will impose extra load on the bearings both in the engine and in the drive train.

All the bits to adapt the 210 gearbox to your TD including a new bell-housing, are obtainable from Steve Neal of Skyhook Engineering, 1024 Mere Point Rd Brunswick, ME 04011 (207) 729-4489. To the best of my knowledge, Steve doesn't have a web-site. I saw him a few weeks ago and he is still in the biz of making these T-Series conversions, albeit w/o any supply of gearboxes!

Take note: The 210 g/b allows the engine/gearbox to be returned to the original state if the need arises. The kits using the Ford Sierra type 9 and the Toyota Celica gearboxes, require, the engine to be relocated, meaning welding new engine mounts to the frame, and probably a messy job to reverse.

If you find another 210 gearbox, please let me know.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Devil's advocate here...

He's not trying to sell his car so I don't see how he can be destroying the value of it.

He's not discarding the XPAG or transmission...he's just replacing them and keeping them as spares. From the way he describes the car it's a driver - I'm sure if he did decide to sell it the next owner would probably want to restore it in which case the engine and transmission would be pulled and the original engine/transmission would be replaced. No loss of value since all the original parts are there to be used...but in the meantime he's had fun playing with 'his' car.

P.S. - If I'm not mistaken only certain B210 transmissions are suitable...and he didn't say he had a 5-speed.
Gene Gillam

Gordon: So the B210 tranny is a bolt on to the XPAG with the Skyhook kit? Does the shift lever enter the cabin at the same point? Years ago I had a '53 TD with the Volvo engine/tranny conversion, and the gear lever entered the cabin well forward of the original. Had to have an L shaped gear lever.

Cheers

Larry
Larry Karpman

Thanks for your input, friends... I have a 1981 Datsun 210 out behind my workshop with a good engine and five speed. The body is pretty sad but not recoverable... the 210 runs and drives great.
I'm still under consideration but what I want is to make the old TD a little more civil as a regular driver around towne.
My TD, 1951 RHD #9747, simply will never be a show car. I really appreciate the input here. Keep it coming. I want to consider every angle.
Thanks
Sid Orr

Larry, I have the Skyhook Conversion in my TF. The modifications to the transmission bell housing is not a do it yourself job. Steve has to have the transmission in his shop to cut off the bell flange and weld his to the case. He will also rebuild the tranny as part of the deal. I got lucky. I bought mine from a fellow in Buffalo NY and had him ship it to Skyhook in Maine. The coversion is first class and requires no permanent modifications to the car. The only way you would know that I have one is if you were driving the car or you crawled underneath and had a look. Everything you will need is included in the kit with the exception of tranny oil and a correction gear box for the speedometer which I just finnally ordered today. Cost $60.00. He would probably include that also, but need to get a comparison of true mileage to odometer mileage to get the correct gearing for the speedometer. The shift lever is in the same location as the original. The kit comes with around generic black knob. I chose to use the original TF knob to keep it stock looking. It's not easy on the wallet and the transmissions are difficult to find these days but the end result is wonderfull. As to the original post, I say it's your car do what you like. The Datsun power plant would not be my first choice but if thats what you have on hand go for it.

LaVerne

LaVerne

LaVerne... where did you order your correction box?
gblawson - TD#27667

Larry,

LaVern has pretty well answered your question about the gear lever.

There are quite a few small 5-speed transmissions out there that COULD do the job. The problem as you have pointed out with reference to your Volvo conversion, is that most of these gearboxes are either too long, necessitating welding new mounts and removing the old ones and/or moving the engine, or/plus the fact that these gearboxes are mostly a direct change; meaning they don't have the remote change mechanism that the TC/TD/TF/MGA/MGB, etc. have.

Without the remote set-up, the gear lever ends up so far forward that it makes it neigh impossible to operate in the restricted (vertical) space under the TD/TF etc dash, so one ends up cutting the lever impossibly short and almost out of reach, or bending it like a pretzel. On the other hand, the remote system moves the gear lever further back so it falls easily to hand. In the case of the Skyhook conversion, its indistinguishable from the original.

I have tried to summarize some of the available small transmissions with remote change mechanisms, and my findings to date can be found on Bud Kruger's very excellent 'T-Talk' web-site - see http://www.ttalk.info/gearbox_options.htm. In comparing these to the XPAG/XPEG gearboxes, you can see the critical dimensions that determine installability and it is evident, that the Datsun 210 is the only sensible one (not the 210B - that's a FWD car)

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A. Clark

Here's a line on a rusty 210. Knoxville, if I remember right.
Tom

Oops, I'll find the other link again and put it here. But here's a possible one in California:

http://sandiego.craigslist.org/car/379724506.html
Tom

Here's Knoxville:

http://knoxville.craigslist.org/car/375063088.html
Tom

I'll let y'all find the rest. Craigslist is a wonder. Amazing that they keep it simple, instead of like ebay that now almost locks up my old computer with ads and junk after a couple pages of ebay motors.
Tom

Believe me, I am not a purist, in fact the list of modifications (improvements?) I have carried out on my TD takes a whole page.

But I would not change the engine, and I go as far as not wanting to change the gearbox, which is perfectly fine for me with the original 5.125 cwp. Correct, I don't travel much on highways, prefer little twisty roads of which silly Southern Switzerland with its Mediterranean climate and look has plenty. For "important" long trips I use my 2004 TF, a utility car, in fifth gear at 130 mph!

Again, everybody does what he/she wants with a car.

Denis
1950 TD
Denis L Baggi

Gordon, the name of the place is
A.C.I. Engineering
6728 Lovers Lane
Portage, MI 49002
ph 269-327-1991

Chris or Tom

The correction mounts between the transmission end and the speedometer cable end. Don't know if he has the correct threads for the TD transmission but I guess you could ask. He would need a reading of at least 10 miles ( I used 20 from the mile markers on I-70) and the distance shown on the odometer. In my case it was 16.4. Could be a little more complicated math if your using kilometers for actual and miles on the odometer but could be done. For my case actual mileage divided by shown equals 1.2 correction.

LaVerne
LaVerne

Berfore I call and inquire, are the threads on the speedo cable/speedometer/transmission end - metric or Witworth or ???? Anyone happen to know?
gblawson - TD#27667

Hi guys,

No Datsun/Volvo Skyhook 5 speed convertion!!!!!
The best way to go with the XPAG engine is supercharging,coupled with 4:3 rear axle ratio.
A few years ago at a Sliverstone gathering there was a MOSS EUROPE Stand with the last MOSS Magnacharger supercharger with boost gauge for sale.
So I bought the kit.
Last Winter project was installing the supercharger, and my TD had already 4:3 installed.
Great combination and reliable for the XPAG engine.
My first commend after the test drive was.
"Why didn't I fit this earlier".
It transform the car completely.
Steep hills that I used to grind up in second gear,
I now blast over in third with passenger and trunk on the boot rack.It trasforms the car completely.
It is now a car that I can drive on the highway without hesitation. No more over-rev just keep up with the trafic.
Last I came from a gathering, in the early evening,
the air was cool and slight misty on the landscape 18 degrees C.the engine was singing,so I rolled on some throttle man that is realy fun. I was indicating 85mph/5400.
With this combination you can easly keep up cruising with the big boys and not ey anyone's dust

So my humble opinion is no Datsun/Volvo Skyhook 5 speed convertion.
ALVIN ST.JAGO

Hi guys,

No Datsun/Volvo Skyhook 5 speed convertion!!!!!
The best way to go with the XPAG engine is supercharging,coupled with 4:3 rear axle ratio.
A few years ago at a Sliverstone gathering there was a MOSS EUROPE Stand with the last MOSS Magnacharger supercharger with boost gauge for sale.
So I bought the kit.
Last Winter project was installing the supercharger, and my TD had already 4:3 installed.
Great combination and reliable for the XPAG engine.
My first commend after the test drive was.
"Why didn't I fit this earlier".
It transform the car completely.
Steep hills that I used to grind up in second gear,
I now blast over in third with passenger and trunk on the boot rack.It trasforms the car completely.
It is now a car that I can drive on the highway without hesitation. No more over-rev just keep up with the trafic.
Last I came from a gathering, in the early evening,
the air was cool and slight misty on the landscape 18 degrees C.the engine was singing,so I rolled on some throttle man that is realy fun. I was indicating 85mph/5400.
With this combination you can easly keep up cruising with the big boys and not ey anyone's dust

So my humble opinion is no Datsun/Volvo Skyhook 5 speed convertion.

Alvin


ALVIN ST.JAGO

Ups, Sorry something went wrong
with the donw loading the photo.
Goodluck

Alvin
ALVIN ST.JAGO

I don't know,,, mabey I'm just too conservative,,, but I would think that running (supercharged)at 5400 RPM for any lenght of time is inviting the parts that live inside your engine to introduce themselves to the parts that live outside your engine...


SPW
Steve Wincze

I also think that the XPAG is the engine for the TD. what you get with the other engines is a kit car. Changing the rear end makes a whale of a differnce in running the TD. Superchargers are great but as I can attest you better have a stong bottom end or things go bang whan you are running them.
TRM Maine

It was only a try out never drive fast.
It is in case you have to move out of a situation
then you have some trottle.

Alvin
ALVIN ST.JAGO

Alvin did not say he is running all the time at 5,400. But instead of the 4.3 bridge I prefer the overdrive: with a ratio of 0.8, it should transform 5,000 into 4,000, and this without any modification to the gearbox and diff.

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Have you installed an overdrive unit...if yes, what kind, what modifications?
gblawson - TD#27667

Gordon, I think I wrote above I am going to install it but did not do it yet. A friend of mine, Jerry Felper of the VMG Club of Southern CA, sold me an Austin Healey overdrive with accompanyinh hardware that has been fit to a TD in Texas. I used to have pictures of all that, which I lost in a hard drive crash!

The modifications are to the tunnel, which has to be enlarged - I have one like that - though I don't think that affects the seats or the space behind the gearbox.

If you wish to help me installing me, you are welcome to be my guest in Lugano!

At your disposal for any further question.

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Denis, Gordon,
I havfe the original write up on your OD system,,, I'll try to scan it at work tomorrow,,,
Steve Wincze

Wonder if the Wolseley and Healey OD are the same system...would make sense?
gblawson - TD#27667

Denis, Gordon,
Go to page 32 of this link,,,,, I'm also posting a new thread to see if any one has an interest...

http://www.tregister.org/pdf/6.pdf

SPW
Steve Wincze

Thank you Steve, I am truly in debt with you for having found my article! Actually I had forgotten it was published in the the T-register. From the pictures, you can see what's needed, the two rails and the bar that fits exactly between the chassis rails.

I measured the space and it should fit with an enlargened tunnel, you probably would only see a bulge just ahead of the seats.

Of course I am sorry I have not done it yet, but as I stated this comes from a real installation on a TD. While I would have nothing against a 4.3 bridge - as my friend Carl Cederstand has in Orange, CA, I drove his TD and it's a pleasure, like mine but so few rpm's - I would love to be able to switch to third, third-and-a-half, fourth, fourth-and-a-half...

As for the overdrive itself, I have no idea how much it has been modified, my conjecture is nope, except maybe for the length of the propshaft which matches the TD.

Please send me e-mail if you need further information, I am willing to take measurements etc.

Denis
1950 TD, n.1034
Denis L Baggi

Sid, my honest opinion follows. Doing the tranny change or rear gears is OK. But the whole motor deal is a bit much. Totally ruins the character of and devalues the car- even if not selling it, just not cool at all. I'm sure chopping/welding/modifying mounts, cooling, etc., etc. would have to be done, thereby butchering the car to some degree. Better to sell it and buy something more modern. Might as well put 22" chrome rims on it too at that point. Your car- do whatever, but just what I personally think! By the way, I have no grudge against a Nissan- I drive a Maxima and have a 280z. George
George Butz

Denis,

If you want an original copy of your article in the TSO, this is available from Gene Fodor who lives near me. He's the guy that keeps all the back issues of the TSO. For $5 he'll mail you a copy of the issue that featured your article. Just tell him the issue it was in.

But make sure you membership in the NEMGTR is up-to-date and include your register number when e-mailing.

Gene Fodor - crownwhl@sover.net

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Thank you Gene, I do have all the isses of the T-register published by John James, but I do not have TSO. Shame on me!

Denis
Denis L Baggi

Alvin St. J.
I have a suggestion for you. I notice that your RH horn had to be removed to make room for the supercharger. I have a Marshall-Nordec with a similar problem. I made a small bracket that attaches to the original base bracket and moves the horn up and back. It all fits nicely with no interference.
If you need more info, just ask.


Jim Merz

Hi Jim,

Yes, please send me that info about the horn bracket.
I hope It will fit on my TD. With the fuel pump and
air filter in the way.

Regards.
Alvin


ALVIN ST.JAGO

sid.....put a datsun drivetrain in a mg td??if its that bad,before gutting the mg,just buy a miata..cc
c callaway

We don't buy Miatas here, we buy MG F's and TF's! (too bad for the original name TF).

Denis
Denis L Baggi

This thread was discussed between 26/07/2007 and 02/08/2007

MG TD TF 1500 index

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