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MG TD TF 1500 - Roll Bars revisited

As Lily Christine comes together, the next topic, of course, is road trips. And somehow that brought us to safety and thus to roll bars.
I did a search in the archives and found a number of posts, but it didn't seem like anybody had found an "off the shelf" option. According to the www.paeco.com site, "all" versions of the MG midget are available, for $350... but no info on mounting etc.
Firstly, how does one mount a roll bar on a complete TD (not disassembled). What welding & cutting is needed?
If anybody has found a DIY off the shelf answer, please let me know!
Geoffrey M Baker

I don't have an answer Geoffrey but for a roll bar to actually provide some protection it must be designed and built with materials that actually do the job. Most quickie install bars will fold up like an empty beer can and don't really provide much protection. I would think the best chance of finding something that really works would be to track down the the vintage racers. They would know what is required and what it takes. Someone like Manley Ford may head you in the right direction but I doubt because of the limited numbers that anyone manufactures a bar due to the huge liability involved.
MG LaVerne

Unfortunately these cars can, and do roll. I have a TC and a TD that have spent some time up side down, with horrific consiquences to the driver in each case.
Many "roll bars" are decorative only, constructed from thin pipe. A true roll bar would be made of strong steel pipe and true deep welds. It must be securely attached to the frame. Such a mounting point restricts the placement of the seats and the erection of a top. On the plus side, though, they do provide a true and safe anchor for three point sholder seat belts.
The whole discussion of roll bars is a slippery slope. Where do you stop? There is also little side impact protection, and high speed impacts on the front or rear produce lethal injuries quite quickly.
David
D. Sander

Geoffrey
I fitted a roll bar to my 1952 TD last year. The improvement in ride and handling is very noticeable, particularly when cornering.
I used secondhand MGB parts which fit onto the TD front suspension.
You will need a left and right wishbone two sets of wishbone arms a roll bar and bushes together with the fixing clips which hold the roll bar to the front of the chassis and two drop links.
You may also need to consider uprating the front springs.
There is no welding required just 2 holes need to be drilled each side in the front chassis.
A very simple job to complete and I fitted it on my own in just over a day.
If you search the web and look for fitting a sway bar to a TD Jim Merz has all the info and pictures.
Best of luck
Mick 52TD
M.J Cook

Dave, I can only imagine. These cars are great fun; but they offer NO protection above the chest area in a roll. I'll have to look at the back and see where something might be welded to the chassis...
Geoffrey M Baker

Mick - I think the discussion is about a different kind of roll bar - the kind to protect you in a roll-over, not the kind to get you around a corner quicker!

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

I've held off finishing fabrication of a roll bar until the convertible top is installed (have a hard top now).
The issue in my way is how low must the rollbar be in order to still raise/lower the rag top. ...someday, I'll get around to finishing it.

There IS a roll bar built into TDs & TFs- the one under the cowling, which goes a long way to keep the car from crushing completely flat in a rollover.

For protection, how many have addressed the issue of a collapsing steering column?
JRN JIM

JRN, that's quite true, I was wiring around that cowling rollbar just this morning :)

I'd be interested in any pictures you take when you get around to doing your roll bar.

I'm going to be working on replacing my convertible top fairly soon (in the next year at least, I hope) and the rollbar will have to wait till that's complete for the same reasons you mention - the top has to be able to raise up over the rollbar...
Geoffrey M Baker

If you looked at the welds on the hoop it might change your thoughts on that :-)


These cars are in no way safe by any modern standard. Can we make them safer? To a point yes but somewhere along in the process you will go over the crest and wind up with something nothing like an MG.

Roll bar is a good idea provided it's properly designed and installed. It would then make a 3 point seat belt effective...provided you changed the seats...and provided you addressed the steering column..... and provided you installed air bags....and provided...you get the idea.
MG LaVerne

That's all very true, LaVerne; but keep in mind that many (not me, but that's because I don't have the cash) are busy spending thousands - maybe tens of thousands - adding new gearboxes, different ratio differentials, and superchargers and roller cams... every bit of which will make these cars go even FASTER...
but won't make them a bit safer :)

I think safety should be considered where it's doable, without destroying the look or feel of the car. A rollbar tucked away behind the seats ... wouldn't bother me too much from a vintage car viewpoint.

If I could add a rollbar, that's probably all I'd worry about as far as safety is concerned (well, maybe 3 point seatbelts).

Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey,
I'll post two photos of the rollbar foundation, but it probably won't help if your tub is already on.
One of the weak points of the TD frame & tub is minimal cross bracing in the event of side impact, so I started with two rectangular tubes to stiffen the frame as well as support the modified rear section of this stainless tub (yes, stainless sheetmetal throughout).
The red primered steel brackets are segments of heavy steel angle iron thoroughly welded to the frame and the one lateral tube. The angles are drilled/tapped for 3/8" screws to attach the future rollbar from above.

You may notice another bracket welded to the frame behind the angle brackets, hovering just above the leaf spring- they were for the Air Lift air bags from a previous owner. I may adapt some inflatable plumbing 4" "test balls" for helper springs, reminiscent of the old "Air Lifts."


JRN JIM

The two 1/2" thick rectangular stainless base plates screw down to the structural angles below. Once the rag top is constructed, I'll know how long to cut the two 1 1/2" pipes that will be welded to the base plates (welded from underneath the platese so the welds are inconspicuous). I have some nice 2" stainless handrails that will be cut & welded for a fashionable rollbar that slides over and clamps onto the vertical pipes.


JRN JIM

One final shot of baseplates in place.


JRN JIM

This style roll bar offers a fair amount of protection, but to install one of this design, extensive re design of body work must take place for the proper mounting points. Single point mounting on each side, without lateral bracing, will offer no protection when a vehicle turns over while moving forward or rearward as it will collapse. Proved many times in racing. All roll bar mounting points must be bolted directly to the chassis, sheet metal will tear and collapse. Some I have seen look pretty, but are worthless in a roll over. JMHO. PJ

Minimal setup,




Paul S Jennings

Does anyone think it is possible to install a set of not-worthless rollbars without complete disassembly of the tub? I don't mind taking out the floorboards completely, but wasn't planning on a full disassembly of the tub...
Also, if anyone has seen a rollbar in a TD, can you post pictures, just to help give us ideas?
Thanks!
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey, google MG TD vintage race car images. Lots of pictures of them with roll bars. None with the details you are looking for I'm afraid.

I think you can get to the frame by removing the floor boards and the differential wood cover.


I'm with Paul. A single hoop wouldn't give me much confidence. At the least I'd want a hoop directly over head and the bracing back to rear as Paul's picture shows. The additional front bracing would be even better, but then you have to crawl in and out ....race car style.
MG LaVerne

That's what I was thinking, LaVerne, by removing all the floorboards I should be able to expose enough frame to install a rollbar. I was thinking of a vertical hoop, with rear stabilizer bars. If heavy enough, would offer reasonable protection. PLUS 3 pt seatbelt attachments. But will it all fit under a convertible top? I will continue to think on it...
Geoffrey M Baker

Is anyone able to provide images of the main rollover bar hoop as attached to the chassis?

Any images of a design would be most helpful.
Rod Brayshaw

Hello Rod
Here's a shot of the attachment points on one side of the roll bar I had fabbed up for my TD vintage racer project. I know it looks way too tall but rules say 3" above helmet. I would certainly go a lot shorter for a normal driver.
As you can see, even though I don't have stock seats it is mounted behind the tub's cross brace so would probably work for you as well.
Regards
Hiram


Hiram Kelley

Jim The sheet metal work and roll bar attachments look fantastic. Can't wait to see the finished job. Did you make drawings of all your work?
RER Rosa

Great picture Hiram that gives me plenty to work with.
Geoffrey M Baker

This thread was discussed between 01/05/2014 and 17/05/2014

MG TD TF 1500 index

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