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MG TD TF 1500 - Starter Help Question

All -

picked up 'new' TD this weekend, and run into my first problem. It has to do with the starter. When I pulled the starter, no turnover. Nothing. A hard click. Turned the starter to free the pinion, head the click, jumped back in. Started and ran for a minute or so. Turned off. Tried to start, same issue. Freed starter, and now, starter turns over, whining, but engine does not start. This car started and ran, no problems, until this weekend.

Apologies for being a newby, but am looking for some tips/insights.

Thanks.
DWB Budd

Have you checked battery voltage? A battery with a weak charge can cause these symptoms.
Gene Gillam

Gene:

thanks for the response; I had replaced the battery with a new one (initial suspicion was a bad battery), which also could not turn over; that's when I freed the pinion, and jumped it. I am going to try a couple of other things tonight, including jumping again, after changing the spark plugs which show some spoilage due to too-rich fuel mix. I can re-tune once the thing is running again.
DWB

Dave
If you have to remove the starter motor to replace bushes or clean the commutator you will need to drop the exhaust from the manifold first.
regards
Mick 52TD
M.J Cook 1

Several possible different problems possible: lack of voltage from bad connection, bad switch (you can short/jump across it to test), or bad ground. Easy to test- use voltmeter and crank- it should show at minimum 9-10 volts at the hot starter terminal while cranking over, less if the starter is locked(Bob J- you are the expert here- what do you think?) . If voltage the same as unloaded battery (likely around 12.5-13V), without the starter spining, there could be worn brushes or bad segments on the armature. The drive pinion can hard lock/jam on the flywheel ring gear- the ring gear wears at the spots on compression stroke causing this- rotating the armature pops this loose (or rocking the car in gear). There could also be a bad segment on the armature or badly worn brushes. Lastly, if it just spins rapidly with no engagement, there could be gunk/rust or some fault with the drive mechanism. Mick, having worked on a few TDs/TFs over the years, I have never had to remove the exhaust (even though the shop manual may say to?) to pull the starter. There is a ton of room to remove it. George
George Butz

Don, something that isn't totally clear to me is whether the engine is spinning and not starting or if only the starter is spinning. If only the starter is spinning there's a good chance the Bendix is gummed up with old grease and oil. Spray some brake or carburetor cleaner around the Bendix and see if you can loosen it up so it will engage the flywheel.

If the engine is spinning and the car is not starting there's only two things it can be...no spark or no fuel delivery.

Check the spark by taking out a spark plug and, leaving the plug wire attached, hold the spark plug tip where it sparks to ground while an assistant turns the key on and pulls the starter. You should see a strong blue spark...oh, and wear gloves when you're doing this. If there's a spark the problem is in the fuel system, if not it can be the points, the rotor, the condenser or the coil. Start at the coil and check voltages through the system.

If there is a spark then there's a fuel delivery problem. Does your fuel pump click when you turn the key on? When the key is first turned on the pump should click rapidly for a few seconds until it's filled the float bowls on the carburetors, then it should ticked intermittently. If it's not ticking at all the pump is probably bad, if it's ticking continuously then there's a blockage in the fuel line. It it highly unlikely you've got carburetors misadjusted enough at this time to keep the engine from firing.

Let us know what you find.
Gene Gillam

All -

thanks for the helpful feedback.

A couple of findings:

1) The proximate problem of course is the pinion, which when freed allows the starter to turn over.
2) the battery surely is part of the problem/solution. I can jump start the car, and it WILL start if the other vehicle has someone with a foot on the accelerator to rev.
3) Don't believe it's a fuel issue. When the key is in the start position, the fuel pump behaves as it should, clicking quickly, then slower, and eventually stopping (once, after the carb overflow pipe dripped a drop or two of fuel, so they are filling).

4) Pulled the plugs, and they need replacement. Long story short, I can get the car started with a wing and a prayer, it runs rough (again, I am waiting on the right plugs to replace - mail order). It will stall from time to time, but if I step on the accelerator, it will run at 2000-3000 RPM, and drive up and down the driveway with a lack of the requisite HP.

Thanks for the tips.
DWB

David,
>>(again, I am waiting on the right plugs to replace - mail order). <<< I use NGK plugs from my local car parts store,,, Why mail order ?????

SPW
Steve Wincze

Several options for plugs at local parts stores.
Don't feel bad ...I did the same thing when I first got my TF (mail order).
As an OBTW do pay attention to lenght on your plugs as these cars can be equiped with different heads ..one being shorter reach than the other.
Long plug in short hole ...not a happy thing!
You no doubt knew this ...but just in case thought I'd throw it out there.
Cheers,
David
David Sheward

hello, the other guys here have all given good advice. i will add since this car is new to you, you may have a couple of issues here. do you have a factory service manual? if not..get one. if i had a car that was new to me i would check point condition and gap, timing, spark intensity, tappet clearance and carb set up. you may already be aware of this, but after using brake parts cleaner on the bendix DO NOT LUBE. if you haven't already, i suggest checking the electrical connections at battery ground and engine ground to frame and all cables in the starter motor circuit. it is also common for the starter bushings to wear allowing the armature shaft to wobble and perhaps shift forward and aft. which will effect the bendix engagement, commutator and brush wear. regards, tom
tom peterson

All:

thanks for the feedback, all of it helpful. The initial problem was definitely with the pinion gear. Once it is freed, it will turn over (the battery is VERY weak, so booster cables solve the problem.)

The engine is turning over fine and strong (cranking), but just will not start. I replaced the plugs over the weekend, but still, crank, but no start. It's narrowed down then to either a fuel issue (unlikely in my view) or a spark issue (more likely). The fuel pump, when the key is in the run position, will click as it should. No time this weekend to check the electrical system, but will do so this week starting with the plugs for spark, and then check the fuel system in that order.
DWB

David,

I would add to Tom's excellent post: Check spark plug wires, cap and distributor shaft runout.

All the spark plug wires should read continuity if you have copper strands, or all approximately the same resistance if you have the silicon carbon conductors (modern).

Every T-Series will start with the static timing at zero degrees BTDC, with a really good distributor they will start and run at a static timing of 11 to 14 degrees BTDC. This is where the distributor shaft runout and weights come in. Without removing the distributor (although it is easier if you do, note the position in the process if you go this route) you can check for the tightness of the shaft (wobble) and with two screws remove the points place intact and check the function and presence of the advance weights and springs. It won't mean the springs and weights are correct, but it will at least tell you if they work. If you remove the distributor be aware that the clamp is finicky so assemble it and the spacers, shouldered hex screw, etc. carefully. I know a TD/C owner whose shaft was so wobbly the rotor swung and cracked a hole in his cap! Jeff Schemmler is THE rebuild expert on distributors, http://www.advanceddistributors.com/

Some distributors wick oil up the shaft to the base, and then the points get carboned over, so check for the presence of excessive oil by dipping a q-tip down there. A piece of emery paper or a points file will clean off the carbon.

See my website for the distributor and the insides if you would like to, http://www.dbraun99.com/ and check out the MG TD 15470 restoration. In MG TD15470 Restoration » Engine XPAG TD2 15613 » Engine Start with Coolant, we had a distributor problem, and later in the On Going Maintenance folder is my rebuilt distributor from Jeff.

I hope this helps,
dave
Dave Braun

How fresh is the fuel? In old fuel the lighter, more volatile particles have evaporated. In hotter climates fuel can evaporate quite quickly.

If in doubt try pouring fresh fuel directly in the float bowls?
Willem vd Veer

David
Another thing you may want to check is that the tachometer gearbox has not rolled over and is shorting out the distributor. TD's are notorious for this. Also check the two through bolts on the starter to make sure they are tight, because if they are loose they will make the starter bind. Since you are a new owner, do you know that at the end of the starter is a dust cap that covers a square nut on the starter shaft. It is put there to loosen the starter shaft when it binds against the ring gear. Turning this nut with an adjustable whitworth wrench will free this up. Hope this helps John
John Hambleton

Each plug wire should spark, but remember it is pretty wimpy compared to a modern electronic system. I use an old plug with the electrode opened a bit. If no spark there have been a bunch of rotor failures, so test the coil wire (use a spare wire so you don't have to undo from the cap). Coil wires can burn off at the cap end too. If ignition good, then just take the float bowl lids off and make sure you have gas in bowl bowls. I recently spent as long time cleaning ethanol-disolved gunk out of a friend's TC carbs- in one week the fuel completely stuck brand-new gross jets closed. Been there with John's tip- spent an hour chasing a no-run deal. Finally I noticed when you hit the starter, the tach drive flipped over to short out! George
George Butz

John:

yep; the first thing I tried was to loosen the starter bind (which was present).

Willem:

the fuel is about 6-7 mos old, and car has been driven about 50 miles in that time.

I did get the car started, backed it from the (heated) garage, drove it up the driveway, backed it down. Since the battery was low, I wanted to try to get some charge back in, so I held the accelerator open to about 2500 RPM for a couple of minutes, and after the couple of minutes, the engine sputtered and died. It has been unable to start since.

As many have said, I plan to check the carb bowls to make sure fuel is reaching.
DWB

This thread was discussed between 08/12/2009 and 14/12/2009

MG TD TF 1500 index

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