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MG TD TF 1500 - Starter motor pinion - needs grease?

Hi guys, apologies for another newbie Q:


Few weeks ago, one thing led to another and before I knew it I had the startermotor out of the car. Since it was out decided might as well have it at professionally checked over.

Now (poorer & slightly wiser) its time to
reunite the items... but cannot recall how greasy the startermotor's pinion should be - where it drives the flywheel?

Any definite ideas?

Does it even need grease?
Or just some engine oil.



thanks in advance!
Will

Will - The starter drive gear needs to be clean with no grease or oil anywhere on it. Any lubricant just speeds the collection of dirt that will eventually cause it to stick. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Thanks Dave, much appreciated. I'll just bolt it back in this weekend as-is, shiny clean.




And as for the Workshop manual recommending that the exhaust system be taken off to touch the startermotor... mine managed to come out solely via the RHS access orifice, exhaust remaining unmoved.

(Let's hope it can go back in same way!)
Will

Will,

You can buy graphite flakes to lubricte Yale locks. It's ideal for starter pinions since as David explains grease will just collect dirt and the thing will sieze up. If you can't find the graphite flakes a very good substitute is to rub the reverse screw thread with a soft pencil.


Jan T
Jan Targosz

Powdered graphite... that is good idea too. Yes I have some - its used to lubricate household locks as well as my daily driver's windscreen wiper rubbers. :)


Might also try a bit of teflon dry-lube though... powdered graphite is very bad for the lungs and can cause emphysaema.
Will

Hi Will,
with the amount of oil that generally gets chucked around inside the bell housing I would think That MG invented a self lubricating starter pinion gear.

Cheers,

Paul.
Paul van Gool

Will,
Good grief...maybe I re-built my carbs for no reason!
I didn't even know my TF had "lungs"! Not knowing what my PO might have used as a "lube" down there I am concered for her health.....anybody know an overpriced "expert" I could take her to? I could never live with myself if she came down with emphysaema and I left her un-treated!
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

By the way....ever here of "KISS" (keep it simple stupid)?
The other day I went to start my TF and ..(bummer) nothing...so, being the "engineer type", back to the workshop for the "barrage" of test metters and test equipment. After 1/2 hour of checking all the circuits, with best know technologies known to modern man, it hit me (like the wet slap at the end of a cold fist)...contained in the "orginal tool pouch" is a ball-pien hammer...removing this complacated piece of machinery (webster's dic. describers it as : "HAMMER: Originally employed as a weapon of war, today the hammer is used as a kind of divining rod to locate tender body parts not far from the object you are trying to hit.").... I firmly hold of this tool in my right hand I slid under the right wing...took a quick look at the poss. of my left thumb...and smacked the living crap out of the starter with one sharp blow!
Turnned the key to "ON" ...pulled the starter and she purred to life!
KISS!!!
Cheer's
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

I've been following this link with interest as my 51 TD has a starter problem. About every fifth time I try to start the car, the starter won't move. I have to raise the hood and take a small wrench to the end of the starter and move it about 90 degrees. I can then fire it up. Of note: the TD Shop Manual describes this problem and how to fix it (the wrench trick!) but not what the root cause is and how to prevent it.. Any help out there?
Walter T

Walter - The root cause of your problem is aworn starter drive gear and flywheel ring gear. Unfortunately the only real solution is a new ring gear and probably a new drive gear. The drive gear is easy in that it just requires the removal of the starter to replace. The ring gear requires the removal of the transmission and then the pan so the flywheel can be removed for ring gear replacement. It can be done with the engine in the car, but is MUCH easier to do with the engine removed from the car. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

Hi Walter, I would think that it is an electrical problem rather than a mechanical problem and probably as simple as needing new brushes in the starter.

This is however better done by an expert so I would take the starter to a Lucas auto electrician if there is such a thing where you live and get him to do a check on the starter. The starter is simple to remove and removal of the exhaust is not necessary to get it out.

Hope this helps.

Paul.
Paul van Gool

Update to story... motor's business end looked as it its still got some residual self-lubrication on it, so left it as is. Bolted everything up - quick 5 minute job.

Replacing the access hatch's panel took 20 minutes... lining up all those 6 holes. ;)




re BallPein hammer... not sure how this will unfree a 'stuck' starter. Unlike modern equivalents, this Lucas thing does not have a soleniod stuck on its body - this is usually what gets stuck on a newer car.

Whacking with any hammer on its end is also highly likely to fracture the motor's endbell. This bit is only potmetal and looks pretty crystalline... mine had a hairline fracture and was summarily replaced.

Instead, I'd suggest:- Use a voltmeter across the battery, then tug the starter knob (same as the "headlights on & crank" test, but less draining on your battery).

1) if your voltmeter does not budge from 12V, you have an electrical fault in the circuit. Best check the wiring.

2) if voltmeter drops significantly (say to 5-8V), there is significant current draw. If your motor is not churning, then something's wrong; could be a short somewhere.

Instead of bashing the motor to submission, best method is to put the car in top gear then push & rock it (many thanks to Dad for this suggestion!). This should amply unjam any starter motor that has not unlatched itself from the flywheel.




As for my particular example... faults uncovered were:-

a) the electrical connection was a little bit loose... so intermittantly the motor wouldn't connect (nil drain on battery)

so I tightened up the terminal nuts; then

b)the PO didn't put an insulating washer on the live terminal... so at next crank, there was huge drain on the battery (dropped to 7V) and the smell of toasty warm wires. Motor stayed silent.

Motor removed & dissected... found the live terminal 'grounded' but also had dislodged itself off its perch on the windings. Motor then off to the reconditioners (getting hard to find these tradesmen!!) as I wasn't sure as to condition of brushes either.

Motor came back, dissected again (I'm just a curious bugger). Found the commutator nicely lathe-trued to bright shiny copper, fresh-greased bushings, replacement(recycled?) body with new coils, replacement endcap (old one had hairline fracture), new brushes.

Rejuvenated motor now spins like a banshee. I would never have before believed a Lucas part could show such vigour... the XPEG didn't know what hit it that day. ;)
Will

Dave & Paul
Thank you for your input. I would think that if the start will engage after 90 degree turn the drive gear should be the culprit. If the ring gear is worn - dead spot - then rotating the starter would have no effect. I would have to push the ring gear around to contact good teeth. I'll pull the starter and check the drive gear and find a local shop that can check out the electrics.
Walter
Walter T

Walter,

When there is ring gear wear, the drive gear tends to get jammed against the teeth (the ends of the teeth have a tendency to get peened over giving them a mushroom shape), thus the necessity to turn the starter motor with a wrench in the opposit direction in which it normally turns. Another way of braking the gearing loose is to put the car in first gear and rock it backward or visa-versa. I had the same thing happen to my MGB this summer on a trip to California. I was able to get home by replacing the starter motor, but when I pulled the engine (for another problem) I found that the teeth on the one spot on the ring gear were worn about half way through. It made me wonder how the drive gear ever engaged at all. Since the T series starters use an inertial engaged drive gear, this is strictly a mechanical problem and has nothing to do with the electrical side. I would probably get the drive gear on the starter replaced (you may have to get a rebuilt starter for this) and see if this fixes the problem. This would give you some breathing room if it works ok. The ring gear will have to be replaced eventually, but you may be able to get a number of years out of it yet. One consolation, you can always crank start the engine. We did that for a week back in the 70s (when the TD was my wife's everyday driver) while I was overhauling the starter. Good luck - Dave
David DuBois

This thread was discussed between 03/07/2003 and 07/07/2003

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