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MG TD TF 1500 - Starting An Engine After 45 year Lay Off

I've been through the archive looking at threads on start up and have copied and pasted the advice from many of you. I know that somewhere I have a detailed article written by I forget who on the step by step process to be followed, much like the pre flight checks we'd do during my time in the RAAF. As I have an extensive gallery and a huge tome of information on TD's, the problem is one that faces many of us; "just where did I file that thing?" If someone has a link to a great and comprehensive piece that covers the obvious like "don't forget to add oil" through to the lesser known like "polarising the genny", I'd appreciate you posting it. I may have healed enough to be able to fit the dash and connect the 20 pin plug in the harness. I'm then ready for the checklist. I suspect there will be some discussion as to which is the best piece to follow so feel free to offer your suggestions to the link that you consider the most worthy. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I am no expert on this but it would seem to me that lubrication is the most important after checking all fluid levels etc.

I would run the starter with the car in neutral to see if you can get oil pressure and then keep it moving for a bit (a few minutes) to lube up the bearings etc.

Other parts that you can get to such as cylinders through spark plugs and tappets are easy to manually oil.

I wonder if you could fill a grease gun with oil and then create a fitting at the oil pressure takeoff and force in oil that way too?

Anyway let the games begin with people who actually know what they are doing here.
Christopher Couper

I have encountered this with other engines and my solution was to add oil to the crankcase until it was full enough to submerge the crankshaft. With the spark plugs removed I rocked the engine forth and back until I felt confident the rods and mains were oiled, and the oil pump primed. Then drained it back to the correct level.The valve cover can be removed and those bits oiled with an oil can. Some generators and distributors have external oil ports and or felt wicks. There is often a spot (Felt) under the rotor to oil the mechanical advance.
good luck!
J Stone

Peter, haven't you rebuilt your engine. And it is not as if you do no know the history of the engine.

Do you have a video camera / phone that you can set up to capture the moment? All of us on the BBS have been following your restoration for many many years and would like to see how start up goes.

I take it the engine turns over by hand (without spark plugs in).

Squirt of oil into each piston and around rockers etc, and as you have roller lifters some around and down the lifters. Turn the engine over using starter without plugs etc to check oil is flowing freely where needed and there is sufficient oil pressure. Only short bursts.

Ensure spark plug leads are on correct spark plugs.

Important - roll the car out of the garage or ensure there is a flow of air past the car as it may belch smoke at start up. Warn your neighbours.

Best of luck, Stuart
Stuart Duncan

I've just gone through this with a chap up the road from me, who decided to start his TD motor which had been un-run since 1972. Here's what we did:-
Dropped the sump and cleaned out everything in sight
Pulled one rod bearing to make sure no damage - all OK so put it back
Without removing rod bearing shells, replaced all castle nuts with nylock nuts and re-torqued to spec.
Cleaned distributor and lightly passed some very fine emery paper between points; vacuumed it out.
All new:- spin-on filter, coil, condenser, ignition wires and cap
Poured heated (on the stove!) mixture of 4 litres of 5 weight run-in oil and 1 litre of Varsol.
With plugs pulled, ran the engine on the starter 'till pressure came up .. ran it for abt 20 more seconds.
Dropped the sump, fitted new gasket (note:didn't disturb crank seals, but gave them a light kiss of silicone before tightening up the sump.
Pulled and emptied filter and fitted new cartridge.
Load of fresh oil.
New plugs, reconnected the ignition.
Started on the first turn! Let it run abt 10 minuted to check for leaks (only one - around the base of the distributor)
Shut it down and did hot compression test - all between 170 and 175. Adjusted valves and carbs. Ran it again - quiet and sounded good after 48 years.

Moral - y'don't have to presume an engine rebuild, even if the engine hadn't been used for many years. We wanted to try this first. It worked and saved a lot of money.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gord Clark

Thanks guys, I was aware of all of these things except for over filling the crankcase. I do like that idea. There is also a trick similar to using a grease gun to prime the engine that way at the top take off for the head and oil gauge by using a garden spray pump. But what I was hoping for was the checklist that I filed away somewhere. It was published in a Car Club magazine and I believe there was also a link. It went into detail step by step in a logical order also dealing with setting up the SU carbies, the correct number of flats as well as static timing, coil orientation, checking with a multimeter, polarising the genny and a bunch of other stuff. If someone has a video facility on their phone then we can record it. Be a bit embarrassing though if she doesn't start! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Thanks Gord I missed your post as I was compiling my response. Some great tips there. Cheers
Peter TD 5802
P Hehir

Peter

Doug Pelton has an excellent video in the "Tech Tips" section of his web page titled " Engine Start Up After Rebuild".

Google is your best friend bulk amount of info some even XPAG specific.

Graeme
G Evans

Don't forget to torque up the cylinder head nuts (engine hot) after the first run, and again after 500 miles or so.
Ian Bowers

With the engine setting that long, I would pull the side cover and valve cover off and do whatever it takes to pull the pushrods and cam followers, lubricate the cam and bottom of the followers, put it back together and proceed with the normal pre-startup procedure. I prelube a first time start engine with the external pressure method, The banjo connection for the oil pressure gauge seems to work well on these old British engines. PJ
PJ Jennings

Thanks Graeme. I'll check out the FTFU video again. I did have a look a two or three years ago. All good info but I'm still chasing that elusive published checklist. It was a very detailed and comprehensive article. I have a couple of hundred M.G. folders, many with dozens, if not scores of entries on just about every aspect of the TD, with info pulled from all manner of sources and it's buried in there somewhere. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Paul, when are you actually doing this and where?
efh Haskell

Who's Paul? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hey. From the looks of it I did pretty well for a non mechanical guy.

I thought I was going to get flamed. :-)
Christopher Couper

Don't even think about starting it without spinning it up plugs out till you get oil pressure.Also fill the oil filter with oil. These engines are notorious for not picking up the oil, I have had many heart stopping moments thinking no oil was coming up.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

When I got my 52 TD it had not run for 40 plus years. The cooling system was a huge problem. It was full of some kind of rusty crud. The fuel tank and lines were full of rusty looking stuff so I imagined the carbs would be too. I did check the compression (cold) and saw I needed a rebuild.
B Mooney

Thanks Ray, my early TD has had a later oil pump fitted, so I assume the details on how to fill the horizontal oil filter will probably be in the TF WSM? I do have a copy of Blower in the garage so I can check that out when I'm next at the car. It should be covered in the general lubrication section. Obviously having good oil pressure, no leaks and everything fully lubricated prior to applying spark or fuel is absolutely uppermost in my mind. All replaced components including lifters, rockers, rocker shaft, timing chain, sprockets, cam lobes were liberally coated with a product called Engine Lube during assembly and the cylinders were oiled. It turns over by hand. Still seeking that published detailed check list. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The block and head were flushed out and the radiator re-cored. New (rebuilt) original water pump and modified thermostat housing fitted with Waxstat thermostat. New brass welch plugs also. So no issues there with the cooling system BM. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

My own take on this is as a machinist. I have an aversion to ever turning any shaft without lubrication. After 45 years there is a reasonable chance it (crankshaft) or some of it is dry. My suggestion about overfilling with oil is to prevent scoring a bearing etc. which can happen whether or not the spark plugs are pulled or whatever, that and priming the pump. You are running the risk of damaging bearings any time you are turning an unlubricated shaft. Normal conditions would retain oil on the shaft for months or even years, but 40 years is asking a lot... a few extra few gallons of oil is cheap insurance.
J Stone

I have already added your wise precaution to the list J Stone. When I emptied the sump the quantity of oil suggested that the sump must have been nearly full with the oil that I kept adding via the plugs over the years, so a couple of crank journals would have been submerged and others dry. With stuff that was piled around and on top of the car by the MIL, (I still have dints in the bonnet from a lounge chair), access became more and more difficult over the years and the engine was not able to be turned by hand. It ran beautifully for about 500 miles after the rings and bearings were done, prior to the big sleep, no smoke and purring like a kitten. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Unfortunately, there is often hidden damage that has occurred, that no amount of careful starting will overcome. I almost hate to write this, but many years ago I bought a very cheap TD that had been sitting for some 35 years.

I went through all the steps I could think of to get it going - I filled the stuck pistons and cylinders over and over for weeks with Marvel Mystery Oil, I flushed out the tarry goo in the sump with kerosene, I lubricated everything from the top end, and finally freed up the engine. I carefully turned it over by hand for what felt like hours with the rocker adjusters loosened all the way to minimize stress on the cam, I pumped oil through the passages and made 100% sure I had 45# oil pressure when I started buzzing the engine over with plugs out.

I ran fresh gas through the fuel system and coolant through that system, and it started! Sure, it ran a little rough and smoked like a truck, but it RAN! Visions of driving evaporated after just a few minutes of running, when with a KLUNK, it stopped, and would not re-start.

I reluctantly pulled my very first engine apart, and found two stuck valves quite bent and tappets barely moving from gum and sludge, and the rings frozen on the pistons which would never have sealed. Two cylinders were very rusty due to valves being open all those years in a damp cellar. But worse, I found that the STD main bearings were all spalled - it looked like worms had gotten into the bearings, and eaten away the top layer until there was hardly any bearing material left. The local machine shop explained that it looked like the engine oil had NEVER been changed: the old and very dirty oil had been so full of acids that they had eaten away at the softest thing for 35 years - the bearings. Even with good oil pressure when the engine started I had spun what was left of a bearing, and had to have the crank's rod and main journals turned -.030", the rods re-sized, new rings, the pistons knurled to tighten them in the bores, and the entire engine and parts hot tanked to remove the sludge that remained. I must have spent $300 on that engine, just in machine work!

My cautionary tale is that no matter how much care you may take, a long-dormant engine cannot necessarily be made to run right, due to invisible internal damage. I have agreed to start long-dormant engines for customers on a budget, but have insisted that they be present for the start-up, and know what might happen. Once it did, the other three times the engine was fine.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Pater. Talk to you tomorrow..John
J Walton

I really do appreciate the time taken buy you all in relation to this thread and have carefully noted all that has been said. I'm almost inclined to have a trial run a day or two prior to the big reveal. I also plan to do everything that has been suggested as well as replacing the copper washers at the two banjo fittings. I think I'll machine these on fine grit paper (1200?/1500?) seated on glass on both sides. I'll be running a temporary fuel supply to the new fuel pump. I also have a new O ring for the new oil pump feed to the oil gauge.

Tom the head has been dressed, new studs and nuts, recommended valve spring pressures followed and tested, caps, seats and guides have been replaced and are as new and so the head has received meticulous attention. The only query is in the roller lifters and the spring pressures, but I have NO intention of going there and I implore others not to comment on this aspect. I have elected to run the street cam and roller lifters and am fully prepared to accept whatever consequences may follow. Based on posts on this thread, I don't anticipate anything negative. I realise that starting an engine that has lain dormant for so long may be problematic, but I'm prepared to suck it and see. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

as you have later oil pump, remove the plug on the oil pump and fill with heavier oil.
Poke a small screw driver in the hole and unseat the pressure control valve ball. This will let the oil flood into the suction side of the pump and aid pick up.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

I have always used a garden sprayer to prime engines of all sorts. I fill it with the proper amount of oil attach it to the engine at take off for pressure gauge and pump all the oil into the engine that way. You can eve see the oil lubricating the rocker shaft.
Sandy
Sanders

Peter,

I have a check list I copied some time ago. Pls send me your email address and I will forward it to you.

jneel43 (at) hotmail dot com

Jim
James Neel

Jim you have mail. Thanks Sandy. It never occurred to me that you could add the precise quantity of oil to the garden sprayer and pump away until it was empty. Will the method that Doug Pelton uses for the TC work, simply pumping it in through the feed to the oil gauge by disconnecting the oil gauge and just tightening in the hose using the female coupling as Doug does? I'm sure this is probably in the archive somewhere. If so perhaps the appropriate thread detailing the method could be mentioned here? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter,

I have just finished doing the same thing with my YT. (same engine, 32 years dormant). Changed oil, took off valvee cover and dumped a liter of oil down the push rods to lube the cam. Hand cranked the engine with plugs out until I saw oil coming from the rockers and surprisingly got oil pressure omn the gauge.

BIG tip. Run Fuel from gas can to prime the system.... DO NOT put fuel in gas tank until you have made sure the fuel tank is ABSOLUTELY clean. Have it removed and proffesionally cleaned and sealed before putiong gas in it.

The varnishes left from old gas will dissolve in new fuel and pump through the system. When it hits the intake valves it will glue the valve stems to the guides. My Intake push rods turned into "hockey sticks" in an instant!

I had to get the head done to fix the stems and guides.

Believe me this is experience talking. All sorted now.

Good luck!

... CR
CR Tyrell

Useful comments CR. I'd already planned to use fresh unleaded from a Jerry can. I also had every intention of using the crank until I either found oil or fell over from exhaustion. I do also like pouring oil all over the push rods to drown the cam. Even if I overfill the sump, it can be checked and removed via the sump plug. Messy? sure;, but so what. The stale gas comment was something not covered by anyone else. My fuel tank is a saga in itself. As anyone who has used the 3 part liner in tins knows, there can be issues with tanks being really messed up internally when adding the final tin of stuff, so I only got as far as the second stage. I plan to beg, borrow or steal a camera on a flexible lead so that I can examine the interior. If I can I'd like to at least flush it out with heaps of metho or kero before I even think about fitting and connecting up the tank. It's still sitting on my snooker table along with the finished dash (inner and outer plus glovebox) and a pair of rear mudguards. It seems like that published start up procedure I'm hunting for isn't on anybody else's 'must keep' list, so I guess I'll write one myself.

Any advice on using the garden pump connected to the end of the oil gauge line? Seems to me that it'll work and I don't disturb the banjo seals at either the block or the head. That has to be a plus. I've read about issues with leaks there so I'd like to leave those alone once I've replaced them. When I do see oil I can reconnect the oil gauge and see what pressure I have. Then I can use the starter, plugs out, fuel pump disconnected in VERY short bursts, but only after I've taken all of the precautions mentioned above. I'm becoming more mobile by the day so the June startup is looking achievable. Still plenty to do before rego though. Tom Lange's sagacious comments about internal damage are very much in the back of my mind however; hovering there like a harbinger of doom... Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter,

Just remember, if their is any damage to the engine that has developed just from sitting.... its already there. Most likely you would not do any further damage. If the engine is damaged.... it's damaged, and you won't know til you fire it anyway.

Pouring oil over the rockers sounds messy , but it is not. I fabricated an I.V. bottle, using a plastic 750 mm drink bottle that seals with a hose with the appropriate fitting to connect to the oil line. I installed a Schrader valve to slightly pressurize the whole thing to back feed oil to the pump. So far so good.

I will post a picture later.

.. CR
CR Tyrell

My 3 cents worth is when you're winding it over to get oil pressure, leave the gauge pipe off it's fitting so trapped air in the galleries has somewhere to purge --Sometimes, and MGBs are bad for this, you can turn the motor over for ages with no result but if you take the gauge line off oil pumps up as quick as a flash
You can push a piece of clear plastic hose over the fitting and into something so you can see oil arrive without making a mess---------------
William Revit

OK Willy. It shall be done. Again, the trapped air has not yet been mentioned. I'm beginning to come to grips with the best possible sequence of ensuring that the possibility of rotation on dry journals is eliminated as far as is humanly possible and that the galleries are clear, thanks to you all. I'll just have to read up on polarising the genny. I know there's plenty on this in the archive. I'll also need to devise a check list that looks at the electrics first, (I have a 123 Electronic distributor), the timing second, the spark third, the fuel fourth, to ensure that all the bolts are tightened and then move on to establishing oil pressure. Once that's done the champagne needs to be placed on ice in anticipation of a successful launch. Thanks to you all for your help. The start up date is still planned for mid June. You're all invited. You just have to bring an empty 2 litre plastic milk bottle with you with your name on it, for reasons that will be made clear when you get here. :-) Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

No need to disconnect the fuel pump, just run the starter with the ignition off.

When I stored my TF I found a car guy that ran a storage facility, he used the crank handle to crank the car over monthly.

When the car arrived here I removed the plugs, added oil to the cylinders and let it sit while I rebuilt the brakes and evaluated the electrics all the time adding more oil.

Then I used the crank to rotate the engine, changed the oil and filter, more cranking by hand.

Then I tried the starter, instant oil pressure.

After a couple of days of that I added new plugs, manually choked the carbs and it started right up.

Thankfully I had taken it outside as it was a little smoky initially but that cleared it self fairly quickly.

Good luck with the start, have a cameraman there.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

My seeming obsession with locating the start up check list comes from my aircraft background. Something as simple as inadvertently leaving a cover on a pitot probe can cause an aircraft to crash. Sure my TD isn't going to fall out of the sky but I'd like to have all bases covered. I've had the cylinders oiled so when I do start up behind the block of flats I can envisage some smoke. How much? I don't know, but I can see a cautious neighbour in an adjacent block of flats reporting a fire. Maybe the last thing I do before I pull the starter should be to alert the local fire brigade. :-) Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

It will clear pretty quickly, pick a windy day. No need to face the TD into wind though.

Peter
P G Gilvarry

Peter

In this time of hanging loose I went through my Book Marks and uncovered this gem regarding Engine StartUp for an MGA.

Might provide a starting point to create your own doco.

Graeme
G Evans

Thanks Graeme. I'm unable to save it as a word doc so I can't cut and paste but some good suggestions there. The attached pic shows what I plan to use to charge up the system. Pretty cheap for less than $10. Connected to the oil gauge line it should work a treat. There's a post on You Tube that shows some guy using something similar. Had the car off its stands today for the 1st time in ages and the tyres pumped up with the help of #1 son. Wheeled her out, spun her around and the rear end is now facing the roller door. Next job is to install more long shelving on the walls above head height, put a tool board on the opposite wall and clear the bench for an upholstery working area. Cheers
Peter



P Hehir

Peter

You have mail.

Graeme
G Evans

Thanks Graeme. Hasn't arrived yet. This is the link to the garden sprayer guy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbNhswhnvuA Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

A couple of pics of the modified 5 litre garden sprayer. Total cost: $9:50 from Bunnings. Plus some tubing from an asthma ventilator my son used as a kid. The fixed wand tube was shortened with a pipe cutter, the valve was retained as I could see no sense in junking it and the plastic connections fitted with the aid of a hair dryer on high. I have one specifically for the car as my wife wouldn't let me use hers any more. The oil line to the gauge is the original that's been replaced and the new one is already fitted in the car and is connected here just to prove the process. Holds air pressure with no leaks. No clips needed. Should pump oil via the gauge line to prime the engine without using the starter. Hopefully no worries. Cheers
Peter TD 5801






P Hehir

Willy there is an interesting article on air in the oil gauge line in M.G. Guru. https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/dash/dt104.htm. I'll definitely be bleeding the oil gauge line once I've finished with the oil primer. The guru's experience is essential reading, indicating that you're never to old to learn. He even managed to amaze himself! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This site has become a "chat room", not a user help site. I'll be moving on unless help is needed.
efh Haskell

I fail to see how ANY of the comments and advice in this start-up thread, from at least a dozen different respected contributors, don’t constitute help or advice, or could in any way be construed as “chat’, except perhaps for the last one… Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

Because they relate mostly to long, long comments by one or two people chatting with each other and the length of the comments is such that only the author could consider all the elements. Advice imo s/b short and sweet! People can't follow such long winded comments. See ya.
efh Haskell

Agreed, elements of common sense seem to have evaporated here.

Asking folks simple questions, them questioning the answers is negative to the process.

Maybe a new “club” needs it own forum instead of coming here for content and copyrighting what is obtained?

Thoughts?

Good night.
P G Gilvarry

efh - P.G.

Thoughts?

Well, my thoughts are, maybe if there were separate sections for general and technical as in the midget and MGB sectors then yes you might have a point, but as it's combined and given the situation the world finds itself in at the moment, I would suggest that anything that can keep us talking and in contact with others here can only be good and people getting grumpy doesn't really help anyone.
Basically, it's a bit like the telly, if you don't like what you see don't look at it--

willy
William Revit

Example (one of many): about 90 posts on one thread about "battery caps" over many many period. I mean, really!
efh Haskell

And almost every post added just a smidge to my knowledge. Battery caps aren't important to me (my TD is just a fun driver) but they are to Peter and some others. My very long thread when my TD inhaled an air cleaner stud was essential to my repair of the engine. I could not have done it without the help received from this forum.

Lighten up, stay well and Safety Fast!

Jud
J K Chapin

Actually there are many many MG related Facebook groups where chatting is the way of life! I know, I know, "we don't do Facebook". Whatever....you can do it if you want!

OT: Hey, there's even a "Leave it to Beaver" chat group on FB and I, Eddie Haskell, am a charter member and frequent contributor with the picture of myself with the real wally and the Beaver taken long ago! (Jud, you said to lighten up, right? This is about as light as I can get!) Stay safe!
efh Haskell

This thread was discussed between 13/03/2020 and 03/04/2020

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.