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MG TD TF 1500 - Strange Rear Axle Geometry

I hope I can describe this clearly.

The rear axle on my TF (LHD, North American export version) is off-set to the left. On the left side, the distance from the center of the leaf spring to the back of the brake plate is about 5-1/4 inches. On the right, it's about 4-3/4 inches. On both sides, the flanges on the bottom of the axle housing are centered on the leaf spring center bolt, just as they should be, and held in place with the U-bolts.


Further measurements show that the flanges are welded onto the axle housing with the offset built in! How can that be? There is absolutely no evidence on the axle housing that the flanges have been moved. It looks like it came that way from the factory. There have been several owners before me, but all of the numbers match, and there is absolutely no evidence of a crash, or any other situation that would necessitate tweaking the axle position. So I can only assume it was made that way.

Is that a bad assumption? Any ideas out there?

(I can also see that the wheel and tire on the left side are closer to the edge of the wing than on the right side, so, if there was an alteration after it left the factory, it sure wasn't for cosmetic reasons.)

Thanks, Greg

Greg Van Hook

A couple of other notes regarding my axle:

The mounting flanges are 38 inches apart, just as they are supposed to be.

There is just "extra" length on the left side.

Thanks, again. Greg
Greg Van Hook

Just measured mine 5 1/4 both sides

Jan T
Jan targosz

Thanks Jan.

It's starting to look like I have a rear axle made up from two different halves, and right side is short by 1/2 inch. Can that be? The TD and TF have the same track, so it's not like the right half was swapped with a shorter TD version or something.

This is getting really weird.

Greg
Greg Van Hook

Greg, I just measured my TF axle. Also symmetrical, with about 5 3/8" from the bolt hole for the parking brake cable (center of leaf spring) to backing plate.

I don't know why your would be asymmetrical, but maybe someone scavenged parts from a TC? (I don't know if that would fit, but surely it isn't from an MGA, which has a completely different design on the outer case of the diffy.)

Mark B.

TC used a different axle assemble than the TD. There is the possibility of that the Y type used the TD rear end as could some Rileys.
Blake J.

Greg,

If you have a scavanged half axle case the wrong part probably came from another Nuffield Group car from the same period. The one that springs to mind is a Morris Minor.I recall my father had a 1950 verion and the handbrake cable was fixed to the spring mount exactly like a TD / TF. I believe the later Miors had a different axle. I am intrigued and will visit the library in Glasgow - they have a superb stock of old workshop manuals - see if I can find pictures of axles.


Jan T
Jan Targosz

Jan, Blake, Mark,

Thanks so much for your help. This really is weird. I just hope it's not really expensive to fix. Anyway, went for a drive after replacing the U-joints and adjusting the brakes, and it was a pleasure, regardless. Jan, I'll really be interested in what you find at the library. What a great resource.

Thanks again, Greg
Greg Van Hook

Gregg;

I think Jan has the correct answer in that you axle is made up from a T-series axle and a early Morris Minor parts. The early MM axle looks just like a T except that it is wider. Years ago a friend brought me a TD axle (he thought) to install some 4:55 gears in, I did the conversion (all the internals are the same as T) and imagine my surprise when I went to install a T half shaft and it didn't reach the spider gears in the diff!! We later found the proper housings and so all worked out well. I'd look for another T axle housing and half shaft.

Ciao, Ben T.
Ben Travato


Now desperate to find out where the rogue axle came from.

Have put a message on the UK Morris Minor bulletin board asking for dimensions from one of their axles and will let you all know if I get a reply
Jan Targosz

Hi, the Wolseley 4/44 has a rear axle that is identical to the TD except that it is 1" or so wider in total width. The spring hangers look the same, the brakes are the same, both have 5.125 ratio and the half shafts look identical except the 4/44's are about 1/2" longer. If you break the axle on the long side, you may have problems finding the longer 4/44 half shafts.
Hugh Pite
Hugh Pite

"I can also see that the wheel and tire on the left side are closer to the edge of the wing than on the right side".


Oooh, ouch! I *knew* it was a bad idea to visit the board today... :-( Still, that's 1 question less to post.


Can the longer 4/44 tube be fitted on the other side?
Will

Will,

Maybe so. From the earlier measurements (Jan and Mark - 5 1/4 and 5 3/8), I figured my left side
(5 1/4) was "normal".

Thanks, Greg
Greg Van Hook

The brake backing plate isn't exactly flat. If I measure from the center of the leaf spring to near the outside edge of the backing plate (protrudes toward the center of the axle about 1/2") you would get measurements that would be consistent with Will's theory that the long axle half was from a 4/44.

And 1/2" per side is a difference on 1" in total width, which is what Will said. I'm willing to remeasure, if you need confirmation.

MB
Mark B.

Mark: Thanks, those are the same places I measured.

Gawd, what have I started? With at least two cars out there, could it be that the wrong parts ended up on the axle assembly line now and then?

Will: Do you have a TD or TF. I'm TF 6846.

Greg
Greg Van Hook

OK, Greg, if I measure to the edge, then I get approx. 1/2" less (just less than 5" from center of leaf spring to the most 'protrudy' part of the backing plate). My original measurement was from the center of the leaf spring to the 'deepest' part of the backing plate. Will's theory is looking like a winner.

MB (MG TF-1500 #10030)
Mark B

Mark: I have to agree with you that the left side is too long (5 1/4 inch to the "protrudy" part). Maybe you've come up with a word that will make it into the MG vernacular.

Hugh and Will: It's starting to look like you nailed it. Very good information. Thank you.

Jan: Looking forward to the results of your research.

Greg
Greg Van Hook

To give credit where its due - its all Hugh's theory, fellas. I'm just caretaker of an unwitting patient.


Greg:- car is TF9808/XPEG, appears to be original Australian delivery & it has never been off the road for total restoration. The LHS wheel spinner protrudes quite a bit more past the fender's edge, which I thought was a little wierd.

Given that it once shared PO's premises with an XPAW & XPAG spare engines, its not unimaginable that other parts was also scavenged off a 4/44.

Broke the RHS halfshaft last month; local MG folks replaced it for me. They cracktested the other side ("ok") too - but never mentioned that it might have been 1/2" longer on LHS. I *must* remember to quiz them on this next time I visit.


Guess I'd better go out to the car soon with a tape measure and see how wide the whole axle is, then compare it to the original specs in the manual.
Will

Will,

When you find the specs in the manual, would you please post them here or email them to me. I think knowing the width, end-to end, of the entire axle is the key. I'm starting to think the total width of the axle is correct, that it is just somehow offset to the left.

One reason: The driveshaft is centered at the gearbox, but is ALSO offset to the left at the differential.

The other reason: I have 60-spoke wire wheels. With the factory wire wheels (weren't they 48 spokes?), the rear track is 50 13/16 inches (according to my Brooklands repro "MG midget Series TD and Series TF Workshop Manual", spec sheet dated 2/55). Even with the presumed "extra" 1/2 inch on the left, I measured the track (w/ 60-spoke wheels) to be 50 13/16 inches.

Minus the "extra" 1/2 inch, the track would be only 50 5/16 inches.

It seems weird that the 60-spoke wheels would result in a narrower track.

And, the published front track is 48 3/16 - I measured 48 1/2 (looks like I've got a little toe out).

I hope everybody isn't getting tired of my ramblings.

Thanks, Greg
Greg Van Hook

Now you've got me intrigued... have No Idea as to how to calculate "offset" on a wire wheel.

"Track" is just the midpoint on the tyre's thread to same on the other side, right?


Definitely one thing that I just discovered is that my wrist cannot fit anywhere in-between the longer LHS tyre and the guard's edge, whilst its fine on the RHS.
(New paint under the fenders - now gotta keep it spotless after each run!! TF9808 is "cream" coloured too.)
Will

Will,(and everyone else):

Joe Curto in New York (rebuilt my carbs and linkage and did an awesome job) measured two TD/TF axles at his shop. They had the same left and right side measurements as mine (5 1/4 and 4 3/4, respectively). He also said mating two different axle cases can't be done because they're matched sets.

So Will, I guess we're not alone. Joe told me to stop panicking.

Greg
Greg Van Hook

Nope, ain't panicking here (gone way beyond that now!) but am still left wondering why my LHS wheel & spinner is so much closer to the 'outside' than the RHS.


I was planning on finding a nice flat place where I could hang a string & bob off each spinner, chalk a mark where it lands and then join the dots.

Just wondering what shape of trapeziod I'll have on the tarmac. 8-)
Will

Will, The explanation for the left side wheel closer to the fender was "British bodywork". Greg
Greg Van Hook

to all,
I must say that I enjoyed reading all the postings! I'm resolved to NOT go measure my rear axle now! My only input is that it sounds like another in the long list of "quirks" that our T types have....most of which make us love them all the more!
Greg, I would advise you not to "fix" anything, the most important thing that you mentioned was that after replacing the u joints and brakes, the car drove like a dream....that's the key....if it ain't broke...!!
Robert Dougherty

{The explanation for the left side wheel closer to the fender was "British bodywork".}

Thanks Greg! :-)

Would have been acceptable excuse too in normal circumstances, but the oddity was something I had noticed myself a couple of weeks ago over dinner (ya, was eating dinner in the garage). Short of a tape measure, I used tools then on hand of various lengths to confirm that the wings were indeed equi-width, as was the tub. Concluded that axle on LHS is 1" (first joint of thumb to nail) longer but couldn't imagine possibly why - until now.

On the weekend, forgot the tape measure again but had the wife handy... so asked her to compare wheel/guard clearances from LHS to RHS. She now estimates there's about 2" difference.

Nuffield steel can't have got it *that* wrong...! 8-)

That said, it was glorious Melbourne weather all weekend and we forgot about it all by adding another (trapezoidal footprinted) 50 miles to the odo.
Will

Will,

I gotta agree. I really can't find anything dimensionally different about the bodywork. The difference seems to be entirely in the axle. Bob Dougherty was right. You too. Trapazoid or not, the driving is the thing. Even tho' it's getting cold here, I put the hood up, and the rear side curtains on, and cruised Saturday (a large pizza fits behind the seats!), and tonight. I especially like driving our country roads at night with my Lucas driving lamps (repros) flamethrowing through the curves.

Thanks for your comments,

Greg
Greg Van Hook

I would believe two medium pizzas and a fine night out, or mayby a large on the luggage rack, but not a large behind the seat unless on edge (what a mess)
Jay
{8^{
Jay Dyck

Jay,
I must concure with Greg....have actually had 3 large pizza's back there! (although you need to adjust your shifting for steep up-hill grades to compensate for the weight...dependent on toppings) It should be noted that you should also aquire a case (preferably in the form of 4/6 packs) of OSH and install these to the 4 cornors of the boot to "secure" the load if you intend to "cornor robustly" to ensure a "warm & neat delivery". (Don't forget to remove these with the pizza...you will need them for step 3...consumption) I have not tested the maximum payload area, (P+A=MMMMM/Hic) since moving my side curtain storage up 4 1/2" ...but will report at first opertunity.
Has anyone devised a "under bonnet" delivery system for long distance runs to insure warmth? My concern here is to how one would insure the exclusion of excess castroil to the bottom of ones pie!
Cheers,
David 55 TF 1500
David Sheward

GREG; I just measured my 1950 TD rear axle as it is out of the car. Overall from outer flange on the bearing housing without the backing plate the measure is 48-7/8" Spring mount to spring mount = 38-1/2". Spring mount to outer edge of flange on both sides is 5-1/4". From the split in differential housing to the left hand side it is 22-1/2" and the right hand side is 26-1/4". Hope this helps.
Sandy Sanders
conrad sanders

My official workshop manual shows the dimension between the centres of the the tyre wells on the rear wheels to be 50", the centres of the spring pads to be 39" and the tyres to be 5.5" wide.

I presume the 5.5" dimension will be the one on the inside of the tyre well but if someone can measure the outside of the rims of a good wheel (where they are flaired over) and this is subtracted from the above 50" this will give us a definitive measurement across points which can easilly be measured

Need a wheel without the tyre for the measurement


Jan T
Jan Targosz

Jan and Sandy,

I should preface this with a Question: Weren't the TD and TF rear axles the same (I have a TF)?

On two separate diagrams in different sections of my manual, (Brooklands repro "MG Midget Series TD and Series TF Workshop Manual") it says the spring pad centers are 38 inches on a TD. I'm assuming that would be the same dimension for the TF. I'll re-measure mine, but I could swear they were 38 inches!

Maybe they started at 38 inches and worked their way out to 39 inches in 1/2-inch increments for some reason, never to be understood by us mortals. Is it common to have such discrepancies in "factory" publications (or even throughout the actual production run of the car)?


Jan,

I think it's probably a language thing, but I don't understand the term "tyre well", so I don't understand the dimensions you're referring to.

Thanks again for your help, Greg
Greg Van Hook

Just saw Chris Couper's comment under "TF DOOR FIT"......... "It's a hand made car."! Guess I just need to remember that.
Greg Van Hook

The TD from chassis 12285 and the TF Axle tube sub-assembly LH both have the same part number 102257. There's also a change in the rear axle shaft. Clausager says that at 12285 the threads on the wheel studs and nuts changed from BSF to Unified.
Blake J.

This thread was discussed between 13/10/2002 and 31/10/2002

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