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MG TD TF 1500 - Sun Bronze update

Not sure what happened, but the old Sun Bronze thread disappeared.

Here is my update.

I have contacted 5 owners of what I call the Brass/bronze TD color. None of the owners reported their cars are done in an original color.

I still have not found any traces of the original paint on my TD, but still have a few more places to look at on the car.

I have received a chip of ICI Sun Bronze paint from Walter in Germany. He has a Y that was originally Sun Bronze. The Y sun bronze is totally different from the Brass/bronze TD's I have seen.

The PPG 23662 number listed on Chris Coopers TD paint code page is still a PPG formula. It comes back as Amber Brown Poly, which was a 1972 Toyota color. I have a spray card of this color but have misplaced my ICI chip to compare it to. Hope I can find it soon.

In 1995, The International Y group worked with PPG UK to recreate the original Y Sun Bronze. Unfortunately, PPG UK will not assist in translating the paint formula into one that can be used in the US. They did give me an Email for PPG US.

PPG US pretty much blew me off. They first thought I was in the UK, and said they could not help me and that I should take a chip into my paint store.

I have written to them again and tried to explain that I am in the US and we are just trying to get the PPG UK formula translated into something that can be made in the US. Since the UK formula is for a two part paint, I dont think it is impossible to convert it.

I will let you know what I get back from PPG US.

At this point, I do feel the Sun Bronze reported to be on the TD is the same as the Y sun bronze. I think we should go with that unless someone comes up with a TD that has Original brass/bronze paint.

To give you some perspective on my investigation, I even bought this headlight bucket off Ebay that is painted in the brass/bronze color. It has been resprayed.



Bruce Cunha

Here is one picture I found on the Internet that says it is Sun Bronze. It looks to be close to the Amber Brown Poly. PPG 23662. I would say, it is probably what Sun Bronze looked like.

With the exception of a Red Grill, I am hoping this is what my restoration comes out looking like.

Correct tonneau (and top to match), red interior, silver wheels.




Bruce Cunha

I found my ICI sun bronze plate that Walter sent me. His color and the PPG 23662 are not the same.

I have another plate that was taken from the steel under the ID plate from a car in Australia coming, so between this one and Walters, I should have a good chance at getting close to the original color.

Here is walters and the PPG (darker is the ICI sun bronze walter used.)


Bruce Cunha

Bruce keep us updated. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

Bill TD-4834
W A Chasser

I can already tell this TD is gonna POP with this color with the bright red interior.

Can't wait to see this one when it is done Bruce.

Frank
TF1414
Frank Cronin

Thanks Frank.

The TD was not my first British car, but was my first MG. When my brother and I restored in in 1974, we really did not know anything about TD's. I had only seen one up to getting this one.

I pretty much built the car using the moss motors catalogue.

My knowledge of what is and is not correct for the TD is now much better (in a great part, due to this web)
I will still have a lot of questions, and will utilize the expertise from the folks here.

A bit of a lofty goal, but I want to return my car back to as close as I can to what it came from the factory as.

This will include original color, interior, a cable clutch, an canister oil filter, Top and tonneau in as close as I can find in color and material. Cloth wiring harness (I did not have the money for a cloth harness when I first restored it, so got a plastic harness)

Even going to nickle plate the registrations plates.
Bruce Cunha

Way to go Bruce! Spoken like a true custodian. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Bruce it’s going to be a great car when done. I don’t remember if i told you but I’ve had a good conversation by email with Kimber Creek Ltd. Tom is sending me a sample of his Red Connelly hides for both our cars. I should be getting it in the coming days and I report back to you. I am confident that it will be to our liking vs the usual big suppliers offerings

By the way I look forward to a future photo shoot with both of these rare beauties once completed.

Bill Chasser
TD/c-8151
W A Chasser

Bruce, there is a sunset bronze TD on EBay now. Is this color you're thinking of?
Keith Yarbrough(TD 1275)

That is very much the Sun Bronze color I have always believed was close to the correct color - not the muddy brown some have claimed was correct.
Lew Palmer

And the debate continues. LOL 😂

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Hi Lew.

I have seen that one for sale on a few sites.

While I am still taking things apart on my TD hoping I can still find some original color, at this point, I am getting more confident that the Sun Bronze used on the TD is the same as the Sun Bronze used on the Y.

My car is a late 50, which is in the range of the Y. I have yet to find any advertisements or sales brochures on the TD that list Sun Bronze as a TD color, but I know my car was a brown/bronze when we got through the multiple layers of paint that was on it.

I only have my memory, but in looking at a metal paint panel done in ICI sun bronze 031-2027 that came from a Y, it looks like what I remember.

I have a second piece of metal coming in from Australia that came from under the ID tag. It is also from a Y. If the two match, I am having my paint shop try and reproduce it.

I have contacted 5 owners of TD's with the brassy bronze color. None of them reported that the paint is original. So, I have no TD's in brassy bronze that I can say are original. I have Y's in Sun Bronze that look close to what I remember my TD being, and we have not found any paint chips from ICI with sun bronze color.

The PPG 23662 that is listed in Chris Coopers web page as sun bronze is close, but a bit lighter than the Y sample I have.

Lacking so far any original Sun Bronze TD's I think we have to conclude the Y sun bronze is what was used.

An article in the T register and potentially some other T magazines in the UK might get us more owners coming forward.

I am open to any other suggestions on what else we can to do assure this is sun bronze.



'
Bruce Cunha

See http://www.mgoctagoncarclub.com/About/about.html for a photo of the TD of Harry Crutchley, a founder of the MG Octagon Car Club. Could that be Sun Bronze? Bud
Bud Krueger

Harry Crutchleys’s MG was restored in 1994 by Steve Baker and painted in Sun Bronze. So Steve Baker would be the man to ask.
www.stevebakermg.co.uk
Dave H
Dave Hill

Thanks Dave. Talked to Steve and he said it was not an original formula sun bronze.

Still awaiting the Y sample from Australia. With that, I should be able to get a formula made up here in the States.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce,

I just happened upon a posting in another forum and found the following mixing formulas. This is not a listing of codes, but rather a percentage of various pigments.


Lew Palmer

Getting old is starting to set in. In another thread I stated I should get off my duff and post those formulas. Lew saved me a lot of extra work. :-)

http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_finishes.htm#formulas
Christopher Couper

Looks like Chris and I found the same chart.
Lew Palmer

I will run these by my paint shop, but from what I have found, formulas don't seem to work well for getting the shop to mix the paints.

Pretty much, if it is not in their computer, they cant do it. This is why I was trying to get PPG USA to help convert the UK PPG sun bronze formula.

The camera's they have run the data through a PPG web and it comes up with a computer formula.

The steel plate I have has the 2027M ICI formula paint on it. If the one coming from Australia matches, I am going to have the paint shop scan the two and mix paint to match them.

With that, we should have a formula that can be used in the US.
Bruce Cunha

The spectrophotometer takes spectral data from the sample and via software compares it with similar data taken from a range of pigment tinters and tries to compute a match. If any of the original pigment types are missing from its database, it’s more difficult. Paint shop guys don’t know a quinacridone from a phthalocyanine, nor would you expect them to. So when they look at a paint recipe that they don’t recognise, it may as well be in a foreign language. I don’t suppose they have much manual colour matching experience either. Back at the factory, they should have the guys and kit to analyse anything and get a match, but these days nothing gets done without sufficient financial incentive, hence the reaction from PPG.
I think that an empirical approach is probably the only way you may get close, but be prepared to waste a certain amount of paint, or paint samples on the way. Good luck.
Dave H
Dave Hill

Ok, Well a bit closer.

I received a piece of a sun bronze Y firewall from John in Australia. This is the area where the ID plate sits, so it is probably the closest original sun bronze paint I have received to date.

I have a spray plate (test) from Walter in Germany. It was sprayed with ICI 031-2027 sun bronze.

I also have a spray card from my local paint store of PPG 23362 which Chris Cooper lists as a sun bronze code. This number now shows up as Amber Brown Poly. A Toyota color.

Here are the three colors side by side.

The firewall is original paint. The 2027 is from a picture of walters car

As you can see. The PPG is to gold, there is a difference between Walters paint and the Y firewall, but Walters is a picture when the car was resprayed and the Y dash is 67 years old (even though it was under the id plate.

I am going to use a fine polishing compound on the Y dash and see if it lightens up and then have it scanned.



Bruce Cunha

I agree, the PPG paint looks too gold and the flakes are too coarse and prominent. The Y type and the ICI samples have a similar texture but the Y type looks duller, which could be age. The number 031-2027 looks authentic as I have a couple of Metallichrome reference samples and the numbers are similar, e.g. Metallichrome Ice Blue is P031-2301. On balance, that looks to be the colour to match.
Dave H
Dave Hill

The ppg is not far from the correct color but the metal flake is totally wrong.

Take a peek at the other color (P031-2653). It's closer the the Y Firewall color.

You can see a sample here:
http://www.sa.hillman.org.au/Paint1a.htm
Christopher Couper

The problem here is what we see on our laptop / iPad screen. To me 2653 looks too red, but it may just be the screen.
Dave H
Dave Hill

The color of Walters Y is from a picture he sent me. The metal test card he sent me is close to the 2653.

The PPG is a high resolution scan and I think the flake is showing up due to a resize of the scan.

Here is the metal test plate scanned


Bruce Cunha

Bill Chasser sent me this picture of a TD. This is probably sun bronze. It looks very similar to the Y sun bronze.

Hoping Bill can find some additional information on this car so I might locate it.


Bruce Cunha

Bruce - I'm glad my offcut of firewall arrived; it looks a bit insipid in the photos, but as you'll know, the darkness/lightness changes as you move to a different angle - my door metal (interior where the doorcard was) still looks a bit "richer" sun bronze than the firewall. I'll post a photo tonight for comparison. I think you're on the right track, narrowing it down to something very close to Walter's plate. Yours, John.
J P Hall

Thanks John. Photos and scans just don't work on the internet. Your sample is they best that I have found. I will use a fine finishing compound on it and have the paint shop scan it. Then they can make sample cards that we can use to match teh color.
Should have some results next week.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce - accepting what you say, here are a few shots of the same door, at the same time of day (seconds apart) - see how different it looks when the door is moved 90 degrees? Yours, John.


J P Hall

../2.


J P Hall

.../3


J P Hall

.../4.


J P Hall

PS - I wish I knew how to put them all side by side like Bruce did in an earlier post!
J P Hall

Bruce

I contacted the PO of dad’s car yesterday. He has factory MG color chips from 1950 and back. Sadly no SSG but it does contain Sun Bronze. I will have him send it up for you to color match if you are still pursuing a formula for the benefit of others. This is a factory original chip book. You won’t get anything better than this for a true source for color matching. You must guard this with your life if I have it sent up. It is not something he loans out.

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Here you go John

David


David Wardell

Ha! - thanks Dave.
You can see that in the shade (pictures 1 and 4), the sun bronze has the duller brown appearance, but in the sun, the bronze comes out, which personally I prefer. Be interesting to see Bill's colour chips for probably the final match, Bruce. Well done for going to the trouble on behalf of Y owners who might want to achieve the best result. John.
J P Hall

Thanks Bill. That will be helpful to have. A good one for Chris also.

I think it is still worth getting a formula as close as we can for the US group.
Bruce Cunha

I would love the capture of the color chip. I have others but no sub bronze.
Christopher Couper

This thread was discussed between 17/01/2018 and 14/02/2018

MG TD TF 1500 index

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