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MG TD TF 1500 - Survivor vs. Original, unrestored


I was looking at a TD recently for which the owner paid $15,000 ten years ago, because he believed it was completely original, with low miles. It was hard for me to hold my tongue because he was so proud of his car, but so much had been replaced and re-painted that I realized it could not be used as a standard for much of anything. He kept calling it, interchangeably, a survivor and original, un-restored. It was neither.

I confess I am unclear what is the difference between these two descriptions - or is it moot? Both types of cars are interesting, but in their own ways. I am often disappointed to look at books like Clausager's Original MG, seeking a point of originality, and see what is certainly a replacement or modification, without comment.

I suggest that Original, Un-restored, is one level above Survivor, a car that is predominantly as it came from the factory, not re-painted, never disassembled or altered; all appearance parts like rubber and screws, original and not replaced, but with parts that are required for safe drive-ability, (tires, hood, radiator and brake hoses, suspension, etc.) replaced as necessary. It seems to me that this class could/should be used as a standard against which originality is compared, which is very important.

I would call a Survivor a car that has had little done to it in many years - one that LOOKS old - but could have been painted, re-upholstered and otherwise re-done in the 60's, or long enough ago that it's not now possible to determine when or exactly what was done to it. Interesting as this class is, it is not any kind of standard for restoration, except by chance.

I have no problem with either one, but would like to be more confident with my language.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

In the TC survivor challenge last fall the winning TC had the original paint, interior, seats,carpet, top, etc. the tires had been replaced, and the original dealer added bumpers. This car still had the flash nickel plating on the builders plate.
In the TD challenge last weekend the TD/c had been painted many years ago, one car had a replacement rear bumper and generator, one car had replaced leather on the seats, another car had replacement carpet. Four of the five cars had the original paint, four had the original leather, four had the original wiring, one had the original fuses, all five had the original dash, interior panels, engines. Not all had the original top, but at least two did.
I hope you get to see the TD/c. I did not spend too much time looking at it, as it had been repainted. The owner is the original owner, and a very nice guy.
I don't know at what point a car ceases to be a survivor and becomes a nice original car. Paint and interior? Drive train, body off?
-David
D. Sander

Tom,

I think David is on the right track. "As it came from the factory". That to me, is pretty clear.

That means:
• No Dealer options - no tonneaus, no grab handles, no spotlights, threshold plates, etc, etc.
• Original paint, chrome, glass and even the Perspex in side screens stamped with the maker's logo.
• Car is complete including the tool roll and half-tonneau, with nothing removed.

It does not mean restored to original factory specifications, and this sometimes bothers those who have spent fortunes in restoring to original - sorry guys or ladies, but you don't count.

There are however considerations for replacements necessitated by inevitable wear for those who drive their cars a lot, and particularly for safety. This would include:-
Tires, all rubber, the top, windscreen wipers, and obvious mechanical and electrical parts.

You can make all the mods you want to the innards, just as long as they can't be seen. (I'm on my 4th engine)

I would award bonus points for an original steering wheel, original top and 48-spoke wires, where applicable.

If in doubt, just try to imagine what your TD or TF looked like as it emerged for its first time, into the daylight, from the works. That's where I think this should be heading!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon Clark

I would consider this as "Original, unrestored".

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=BG0613-

But, "Survivor", to me anyway, I would use to describe a car that retains all but items needed for safety to be driven. Original paint, interior, engine ect.

I would consider my TF an “embellished driver”.
Upgrades and period accessories, and retaining it’s original drive train, but in no way “Original”.
David Sheward

oops try:
http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_detail.cfm?LOT_ID=BG0613-160811&utm_source=delivra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=BG0613%5FS53
David Sheward

Maybe where "original" starts to fail is when the original finish is overcome by signs of ageing. For example; when the leather is cracked, the paint is chalky, a little rust is showing though the chrome, etc. The aged finish is not the factory finish and this is where arguments in favour of an unrestored car can fall down.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Dave,
I like “embellished driver”. And thanks for the help with the boot storage. It worked out well.
Mort
Mort Resnicoff (50 TD-Mobius)

Hi:
A friend of mine has a good unrestored MGA. He improved it by asking everyone who was restoring an A to save all their original parts including nuts bolts and screws and he picked the best to replace anything that was in poor condition on his car. Original? No, but very well preserved.
Jc
John Crawley

Jay Leno has an E-Type Jag that is what I think of as an original. It was bought by a woman who rarely drove it, kept it garaged, and had it regularly serviced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPKSf5tHzsw

Oh to have Jay's resources!
J E Carroll

Gotta wonder ...how many "guys" does Jay have? LOL
Clock "guy" speedo "guy" wheel "guy" ...ect.
I need "guys"! (bit of money wouldn't hurt!)
David Sheward

HUUuummm,,,I would stay away from the "Speedo guy" !!!!
STEVE WINCZE

Steve,
LMAO
He's OK ...just keep a firm grip on the soap!
David Sheward

Gordon, I agree overall with your view, but "original" shouldn't preclude dealer installed "options."
"As it came from the factory" might be reasonably seen as "as delivered to the original buyer." There were correct period accessories that weren't factory available that that which dealers offered and were proper for the car and the marque.
Agreed with having all accessories and tools originally with the car, right down to the original key.
BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

An interesting story from the GOF...it seems that the headlights for the TD's were always being stolen when they were shipped over to the USA from the UK, so the factory began taking the headlights off and shipping them separately...which is why there are some cars from the factory that have the wrong year headlights on them!!!
Bob Dougherty

Once the car is repainted OR the upholstery replaced, the car no longer qualifies for "Survivor", "Restored to Original", or any form of "original" and that includes dealer-installed options.

The instant there is even the slightest bending or the interpretetion, of the car as it was driven out of the factory (to the the Southampton docks - 60 miles from the works), then that makes it something different. Simple - either it is original or its not original.

I would however allow only those changes that involves safety (tires. seat belts, improved lighing, Rainex, etc), but absolutely no dealer-installed goodies.

And I have suggested to David that any car entering the "Survivor Class" must be driven from the point where the car is registered, to the event in Oenonta. No Trailer Queens!

I will be driving my TF there, but despite it being original (I bought it new) it will not stand out. I'm afraid that after 300,000 miles, its looking pretty tatty and is today, a "less-than-ordinary" TF.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon Clark

I'll vote for you Gord!
Bob Dougherty

Spot on once again Matthew Magilton !

Also,plain Threshold Plates on TDs and TFs
were originally Factory issue.

Cheers
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

I still say that the real acid test, is/are the 12 spot welds on (each side of) the TF rear apron.

Almost universally, they're filled-in, and again almost universally, an owner will swear oroginality, usually and unsuspectingly, a result of an earlier re-paint.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon Clark

I'd like to have a splash apron so good that you can see the spot welds. Everyone I've found so far has at leas a skim of filler, some quite more!
J E Carroll

I still find it amazing that for a company that turned out such great quality with mostly manual, hand labour, that these spot welds were never filled-in, in the first place.

I've posted it before, but here's a pic of my TF as it presently is ...

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.




Gordon Clark

Reply to Bob Dougherty, New Hampshire, USA

Bob: Many states did not allow the original non sealed beam headlamps and therefore the factory did not even bother to include them in those markets. California was one such state.
Chris Couper

Our TB is unrestored, but it certainly isn't original!!!


DM Gibson

I don't have all the problems described in this thread, nor am I worried about them. I bought this TF for two reasons. It has matching numbers and a rebuilt engine with 10 break in hours on it. I paid to much for it, but I knew when I bought it that it was to be taken down to the last bolt and built back up. There wasn't a half dozen original bolts in the car, in fact a lot of the smaller bolts were even the wrong thread, a couple were the wrong size. The dash was gone and a wood one took it's place. A new door was put on the right side many years ago due to damage in an accident which destroyed the right front fender, front bumper, right dumb iron, lower control arm (broke in half), and in this episode, a fire ensued warping the bonnet and right side panel. So you can easily see where I stand on originality. Oh it'll look good when done and to the untrained eye look just spiffy! But it'll never come close to being judged in a concourse show. So, when it's done, who knows when, I'm going to drive the wheels off it, have fun and not give a thought to which bolt came with the car and which one didn't! I went through all of that years ago restoring American built cars of the 20s and 30s. It started out as a hobby and turned out as a nerve racking cut throat business where being stabbed in the back was of the norm! That gents is why I love these British cars and the folks that are involved with them! At first it was hard to imagine folks this nice and friendly in the car game. Sorry for running off, when I get started on this subject it's hard to stop. PJ
Paul sr

"I'm going to drive the wheels off it, [and] have fun"

That's what it's all about

Jud
J K Chapin

I agree completely, PJ. I always prefer to do mechanical restorations on MGs so they are safe, reliable and handle as well as expected, and leave the paint, chrome, etc. to the next owner. Concours is fine if you enjoy it, modified is fine if you enjoy that (but please don't change the engine), and rough original is great.

I also agree about the nice-guy world of MGs; I have been stiffed only once by a CA buyer of my Roadster Gaskets, after more than 200 sales.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

I agree with you Jud. My TF is - as a driver - much better than original with its five speed box, alternator and Halogen front lights. It is a drivers car, set up for long distances and lots of fun, but still perfectly stock looking - ooops; apart from the chromium 60 spoke wheels and Vredesteins radials that is...

But MGs need all sorts of caretakers, and I am very grateful to those that choose to strive for originality and perhaps restrains me a bit from more radical mods.

Would have loved one of those T. Lange superchargers though..

regards,

Jan
Jan Kristoffersen

Jan - I do have a complete supercharger kit right here that I can send out today...

Tom Lange
t lange

My TF would probably love one, and my wife would probably think otherwise.....

But i have started talking her into it..... so maybe this winter.

Regards,

Jan
Jan Kristoffersen

DM - I can't believe what you crazy Brits put these little old cars through!

Cheers!!!

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

I agree with Bobby DM! That poor little car is just begging you for a bath. It looks so sad setting there. A nice bath would put a smile on it's face again. PJ
Paul sr

A nice bath would put a smile on the cars face, however, I would wager getting it to look like that certainly put a smile on the owners face!

Drive the wheels off it, and have fun. That's what it's all about.

As to "the M.G. brotherhood"...well, where else would you find people like Tom & Len offering to sup-up my TF at no cost for such wonderful parts!
(Hey ...you gotta have dreams! LOL)




David Sheward

This thread was discussed between 12/06/2013 and 03/07/2013

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