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MG TD TF 1500 - TD Front Brakes

I have fitted 4 new wheel cylinders, new shoes and new drums c/w hubs but the car still pulls to the left under braking. We have bled the hydraulics several times and adjusted the shoes but it still does not brake straight ahead.

Can anyone suggest the problem or should I give up, dump the car and start watching daytime TV?
R J Marshall

I had same problem.
check the rear brakes.......
M Lees

Have you had the drums turned? One might slightly tighter and could be binding??? See if the one drum feels hotter than the other after braking. Just a thought.
Daytime TV is NEVER a good option :)
Geoffrey M Baker

I strongly recommend AGAINST turning the drums, unless there are visible ridges, hard or uneven spots. They wear very little, and you should not remove material you can never replace. A quick scrub with an abrasive pad and you should be fine. A leaking grease seal can cause pulling.

Did you replace the hoses? One could be partially closing down. Also, if the front wheel cylinders are incorrectly installed you can have reduced pressure to one side. And then be sure they are equally adjusted.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair

t lange

Make sure the shoes are installed correctly. The fronts have leading shoes only and should all look the same. The backs have a leading and trailing shoe; mixing them up will create very uneven braking and may cause a lockup.

If you want to dump your car, send it here to my dump!
JRN JIM

Hi RJ

Get it checked on a garage brake testing machine. Mine was pulling to one side and I found that one of the rear brakes was not working at all! Matt
Matt Davis

I had a bad lil seal for the front wheel bearings that caused lots of problems till I replaced it. They would work well for a while then it would pull to one side, then get better again. I finally rogues that grease was being flung out to the drum and fouling the friction. It would burn off after a bit and get better then repeat.

The issue with setting up the cylinders incorrectly will really a big difference. Check that out as well.

Alex
Alex Waugh

It is possible that you don't have a brake problem, but a suspension issue. If one of those components is loose or very sloppy, it can pull to one side on braking.

Again, doublecheck the orientation of the rear shoes.
JRN JIM

Jim - in my apparent dotage I didn't remember there was a difference between front and rear shoes! I think Moss sells the same thing for front and rear.

Do you have a picture?

Thanks. Tom Lange
t lange

Gentlemen

Thank you for your advice.

1. The rear brakes are OK. The front left wheel locks up under hard braking.
2. The suspension was rebuilt in the past 1/2 years as partof a chassis up rebuild.

3. The drums are brand new - they ain't done any miles! Thet cost serious money.

4. I'll check the hoses - again.

5. I don't think it is the seal because they are new (came with the drums) and have done no mileage except up and down our village street when testing the brakes.

6. The brake shoes came from my stock. I've had this car since 1967/8 and its sister (TF) since 1962 so have acquired a useful stock of parts. They are correct. I have been known to put the cylinders on the wrong way round losing any slef servo but I have checked and they are correctly orientated.

Perhaps not daytime TV but knitting?

Bob
R J Marshall

Hi RJ.
Try swapping the drums from left to right and see if it now pulls to the right.
That will tell you if the drums are the problem.
I had a vehicle years ago that had a small crash with the brakes locked on hard and it had distorted one drum. Replaced that drum and end of problem.
Rob.
R Browne

Bob,
Check that the shoes are arched correctly. New shoes/new drums, you may need to file the shoes to get full contact to the drum. Chalk the shoes and rub into the drum and file contact areas. I also file a slight taper to the leading edge of the shoes. I think the sharp edge grips till they settle in.
Are your new drums for solid or wire wheels, if for solid, where did you get them?.
It makes a big difference to how your brakes work.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Jim, I'm still puzzled about the different brake shoes for front and rear. Dug out the SPL (AKD 834) and saw that Plate E shows two different Illustration numbers for front (E4) and rear (E14). Then I went to the details for Section E and saw the same thing, BUT -- it seems that both E4 and E14 have the same OEM Part#, AJH5193 for the lined shoes and 19151 for a box of linings with rivets.
Bud Krueger

Did you check that the wheel cylinders are fitted the correct way around? You should have them so that the front cylinder of each wheel pushes downwards.

John
J Scragg

All of the shoes that I have used on our TD are the same,, no difference between front and rear,,

Now,,, are the shoes that you used all the same ???? I have had a bad experience with shoes that had hard linings, You mentioned that you are useing parts from your stock,,, is it possible that you have different linings on the left and right side? ie hard on one side and softer on the other ???

Steve
Steve Wincze

I'll add one more thing to check. Make sure the U bolts are tight on the rear axle. They just might be loose enough to cause some rear wheel steering under braking. Not likely the cause, but easy enough to rule out. Same for the front spring hangers. Also check your front tire pressures match.
MG LaVerne

Steve,
from the TF Illustrated Parts list, May 1954 both F and R shoes are AJG5029.
Interestingly while checking this I found the IPL shows the lengths of all the brake pipes. For years I have been carefully making up new pipes alongside the old!!!!.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

I was going to post what Steve did above about different shoe friction materials. If the left is locking, likely the right is not working. Just because the wheel cylinders are new, don't assume they work. I would remove the drum and make sure both move. Possible a passageway was not drilled or piston stuck? George
George Butz

From memory, it seems the shoes are all identical. Note that the brake material is attached assymetrical on the shoes, so there's a short space and a long space from material to the end of the shoe, recessed vs not recessed.

The shoes can be installed backwards.

If the left front is locking up, you may have a shoe backwards.

The orientation is critical for the leading and trailing behavior. You won't pick this up in the Moss catalog, but, there is an image in the workhop manual. The WSM gives a tiny hint... "The recessed end of the upper or trailing shoe is fitted against the brake-shoe stop on the brake plate.

Incorrect installation will generate to much brake force and can actually lead to locking up.


JRN JIM

Thank you to all who have replied.

1. Shoes - the same material is fitted to all four shoes

2. Swapping the drums is my laat resort, probably tomorrow.

3. Wheel cylinders are correct.

4. Ray Lee. Front Drums
The front drums are available from the Octagon Car club at close to £500 for a pair c/w bearings. If you are not a member it is worth joining to get the discount.

4. As Mr LaVerne points out a loose rear axle can cause problems but it is tight and a loose axle should not cause wheel lock up. New rubbers etc were fitted when I rebuilt the car 2 years ago since when the car has been nowhere - we remodelled our house last year. (About 10 years ago I bought an MGB GT c/w 2 litre Stage 3 engine. The bloke who built failed to torque anything down so when you put your foot down the rear axle steered the car. The U bolts needed a full turn to become tight).

Keep sending the advice - one can always learn. Back to the workshop for more frustrating time!

Bob

PS Got the grass mower out and found the transmission on it had gone down since it was last used. There is a good old English expression which expresses my feelings!
R J Marshall

The shoes cannot be installed backwards as the micram adjuster fits in a cutout on one end of the shoe
The only way to be backwards is for wrong slave cylinder orientation which has been addressed.
From experience twin lead one side and twin trail the other will whip the wheel out of your hands.

Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

Rob, the reason I asked was that some Octagon drums were incorrectly machined. The land separating the bearings was too long. This meant that the bearings had too heavy a preload and tried to lock up. If then the nut is slacked (as in taper bearings) the bearings are not secured.
I don't know how many were wrong but I have knowledge of one pair.
Not knocking Octagon as I have been a member for 40 years (No 756)
Keep us informed.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

The wheel cylinders would have to be installed upside down in front to be reversed, in effect, weaker twin trailing shoes (maybe right front).

I think you'll find the upper trailing shoe can be installed bassackwards in the rear.
JRN JIM

It would appear the only way to install the front cylinders upside down is to have the wrong side backing plate installed.

The Moss catalog doesn't shown backing plates, or even list them, as far as I can see. Having converted our TD driver to discs, it has been years since servicing the twin leading shoe brakes, which I have a great deal of respect for. There should be a couple of backing plates laying around my shop and I'll see if they are mirror image and can accidently be installed wrong side/upside down.
JRN JIM

The front wheel cylinder I have on the shelf certainly look like they can be installed in either direction, rightside up or upside down.
JRN JIM

If you plan to rotate the drums, how about taking a 4 picture of the shoes and hardware and share them with us?
JRN JIM

I have had exactly the same problem last week. I swapped the front drums and checked on a brake testing machine. The car is now braking correctly.
C.M. groucho

C.M.
Sooooo,, what changed in order to correct the lock up on one of youe wheels ???? If Bob was to swap the drums, and EVERYTHING ELSE STAYED THE SAME, I would expect that the opposite side would now lock up,,

Steve
Steve Wincze

Jim,
The cylinders can be mounted upside down as many people have found to their regret.
The back plates can be mounted on the wrong side of the car. If this is done it is obvious as the front banjo bolt will now be under the steering lever and impossible to fit. That is if you are not the DPO of a friends TDC who fitted washers under the cylinder to give clearance?????.
Ray TF 2884
Ray Lee

I think that this thread should now be closed. After fiddling with the brakes my wife* pronounced that the braking was AOK and last night I gave it a hammering around our village and it pulled up straight.

I guess the cause was that everything was new and that the particular shoes were poor. I relined the front brakes and all seems well. Thank you to all those who contributed.

Bob Marshall

* It may seem strange to listen to one's wife. Some years ago we came back from the south of France and she drove from Grenoble which we left at about 8.30 pm. I slept and awoke at 4/4.30 am thinking we were in Paris. We were not - we were in Le Havre. Check the distance. A couple of years later she admitted that the only time she went under 100 mph was to pay the road toll - they can't catch the money when you pass them at speed. So she is a good judge.
(The car was our daughter's MGF)
R J Marshall

Bob:

My response may be late but it is simple: Try bleeding the brakes (again).

May I ask where you purchased those drums. (I don't think any are available in the U.S.A.)

Mark Sherman
Mark A. Sherman

Mark Sherman

I got them from the Octagon Car club for about £500 but you would not have to pay the tax which is circa 20% but pay the freight which if airborne could be high - they are heavy. They are supplied with bearings. Refer to Ray Lees comments above re faulty machining on one set

info@mgoctagoncarclub.com

Good luck

Bob Marshall
R J Marshall

This thread was discussed between 08/04/2015 and 15/04/2015

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