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MG TD TF 1500 - TD Tub and Doors

I wish I could have invited all of you to my house last night for steak and drinks, while we went out in the garage with a couple of experienced TD coachmen to review the progress to date on my chassis and the work to be done on my tub.

http://www.mysteryship.photosite.com/MGTDRebuild/MGTeardown1/LH_door_bare.html

Brian quickly zeroed in on my wings, pointing out the spots where 'filler' had been deposited by a PO, going by the 'ring' of the metal when he rapped on it with his fingertips. Turning our attention to the tub, we looked at the rotting wood in the lower portions and the firewall interface, and the strangely sound metal adjacent to the powdered timber. Bob and Brian both scoffed at my plan to replace every single stick of wood in the tub, and instead suggested a method where only the wood that is rotting is replaced. Their reasoning is the difficulty in fitting the new wood and the trouble with making the existing sound body panels fit the repaired wood frame.

I assumed that since I was replacing the tub wood (now it looks like that will only be about 85% of the case) I would also be doing a complete replacement of the door framing. NO! Bob nearly had apoplexy when he looked at my doors and saw their sound condition. Come to think of it, I took the interior panels off, removed the door hinges from the side pillars, and set the doors aside, not even twisting them or checking them for rot. I just assumed they were as bad as the tub. Turns out the wood in my doors has held up very well. I wonder why my lower areas would be so dry rotted and my doors so well preserved... but now my marching orders have changed.

Brian does tub work and painting on these cars every day. He has built award-winning tubs on award winning chassis. As I was considering involving him I was honestly trying to figure out how to insert myself into the middle of the tub rebuild without hampering his efforts or slowing the process with idiot observations and requests.

Frankly, I have to be honest with myself... I've never enjoyed working with wood, and I don't relish bodywork, btdt. Although I would like to say I rebuilt the entire car myself, the fact that I could miss the good and bad of my tub and make assumptions about the fitness for duty of the doors tells me I should simply set aside and let an expert get me to the point of installing my interior and finishing the car.

I wondered as my MG buddies drove off into the night what I would do with my time while the body is off to Brian's shop... I started taking stock of what still remained to be finished, and I realized that my involvement and individual effort would still be considerable. I've made arrangements for Brian to swing by next week and pick up the tub, wings, doors and the rest of the exterior painted bits.

This sounds a bit like an apology for outsourcing this part of the task... but really it was just a cathartic excuse to bring you up to date and to redirect my thinking on this part of my restoration. Along the way since April, I altered my thought of creating a 'driver' to creating something more authentic and original. My tendency is to not be flexible sometimes, but I think I just grew up a tiny bit.

Warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Sometimes we get into that "I did it all myself" sort of mind set... Hope your not thinking you might have become an "its at the restoration place, get it back in June" type?
I would not hesitate to send the car in pieces out for body/paint... i'm not a body man...(i do touch ups, but not the full job)... i'm not an engine man... I wouldn't hesitate to have a "real" mechanic do an overhaul...
Relax... there is soooooo much other stuff to do!!!!
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Gordon, I'm glad I popped back in. You've made me feel much better! Thanks!
Dave Braun

I'm in your boat, too Dave.

I won't touch a transmission (all the parts look the same!) and I don't do paint. All my friends say " ... aw, its really easy. You just ... ,then you just ... then... etc. etc.) Rrrrrr ... ight!

Last July, I took a rare 1949 Pinin Farina bodied Bentley to Bonhams auction in Darien CT. This car had gorgeous paint, but the saga of getting it that way, frightened me. Even the flux in the welding process must be just right or the paint will bubble in a year or two.

No, I'd rather engage someone who's been there, done that; and this takes the obligation off my shoulders.

Keep focused and move straight ahead. You've done the right thing, and just think - your TD will be on the road a full year ahead, than if you had undertaken the tub job youself.

Onward and Upward !!

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

I am still unsure on comments about "filler" My TD had lead on the side. It obviously was damage sometime back in the 50's. Finding someone who can do lead today is pretty difficult.

Given the thickness of the steel on the fenders, it is nearly impossible today to get a fender perfect without a skim coat of filler.

I am obviously not saying you should not work a dent out, but to have a car without some filler would be very difficult.

Bruce Cunha

DIY lead loading: http://freespace.virgin.net/tommy.sandham/leading.htm
Willem van der Veer

"Don't use so much heat that you cause distortion in the panel".... gulp.....!!!!!!!!

When I stripped my top hood/bonnet panels, the driver's side had a few dings in the curve... some "whoever" had filled them with plastic and then spread a 1/16th or less almost all the way down to the front of the panel.... it was amazing that the whole width had been flat as a "die"....
I figure there are artists in lead and artists in plastic and most things are not as easy as they look?
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Gordon C, Bruce, Willem, Gordon L,

I really liked Gordon's comment about being on the road faster. I do enjoy driving my car, I always have. I would never consider doing my own chrome plating. Even though the wood and the body work might be in my skill set with enough practice, I know I won't enjoy the process. I love the mechanical stuff. Rebuilding my gearbox three times until it came out right (trouble with the center main bearing) was rewarding and emjoyable. I never once felt "Oh my Lord! I have to do it again???!!!" It was more like "Oh boy, how cool is that?"

Bruce, both of my front wings had slightly different paint spray on the leading surfaces, I always assumed from paint chips. I'll take some pictures as we strip them as to why there is filler in there. I know no filler has touched the car since 1979.

Willem, I didn't know that plastic filler is hydroscopic, and although leading looks really fun, I think I'll pass. One of the things that crosses my mind about body work and painting is the relative toxicity of the newer finishes. It kind of takes the fun out of the whole idea. I remember spending hours fabricating new parts for my wood boat when I was younger. And then varnishing the finished pieces, and finally spraying the hull every other year or so... I loved that old boat, but I was so happy to purchase an aluminum boat a few years later. Right now, both of my boats need engine work. I'll tackle that shortly, a complete rebuild of the powerhead on the ski boat and a simple helicoil in the head on the jet boat... and when spring comes, I'll have all sorts of extra time to help my double amputee friend sail this summer. So, it's all good!

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

How interesting we all are... the third time i removed my master cylinder (how easy was that...I did it from beside the car by just reaching under) I thought I would "spit"... I just hate mechanical stuff...mostly I hate doing mechanical stuff twice (let alone three times)... Give me a good chunk of wood any day... wood holds a pencil line, doesn't move (like fabric)... and doesn't get all greasy!
I suppose in order of my favourites:
1. My couch...!!!
2. Woodwork
3. Fabric
4. Mechanical stuff
gordon lawson - TD 27667

I believe that lead will move over time. Does anyone have any input on this?
I've seen evidence of this in an old 1938 Olds and on a Jag XK120 where it was lead molded in at the headlights. I had the Olds in my teens and actually played around with some leading then. As I recall it was pretty straightforward.

"How interesting we all are... " indeed Gordon! I think I enjoy this list so much because of that. And the bonus is that it's so friendly. Why is that?

Dave
D Clark

Because to drive along a road with the windshield down, with a leather flying helmet and goggles pulled on over your head, and to be spewing oil out of somewhere, and to have a big oversize coat with fur lining, and mitts... and still only be going 52 mph.... you just gotta have a sense of humour!!!!!!
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Not even a hint of an apology, I hope. It shows that you know how to make smart use of any available resources. Truth to tell, if your MG guys were anywhwere near me, they would have had the job a long time ago.

I'm sure you'll find plenty of other components to occupy your time while they do their thing. Good for you.

Pete
Peter Whelan

Thanks Pete. I'm feeling much better about my decision. Gordon... "and still only going 52 mph" you are a hoot!

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

BTW, Dave, did your MG guys give you any idea as to what they plan to charge for their work? A ballpark figure, or is this one of those blank check deals?

The reason I'm asking is that I had a resto shop guy stop over yesterday to give me an estimate of what it might cost to get the better of my two tubs into shape in order to speed up this never ending project.

(Reading this thread a few weeks ago, and a little verbal prodding by my better half was the inspiration for this inquiry, as I had planned to do it myself, as well.)

Long story short, my guy tells me that to restore the better of the two tubs (condition 6 out of 10, the other one's probably a 3), would take approximately 300 hours at $60.00 per. This is for the tub only, rebuilt with some lower wood replaced, minor rust repair along the running board line and primered, not painted. (I have all the parts, incidently).


That's 18 GRAND...YIKES!! Just for the tub!!

This guy appears to have a pretty good reputation, doing mostly late model American stuff, (Chargers, Camaros, etc.) and has done TD's, (one at least) in the past.

For that kind of dough, I should just Ebay the whole lot, both cars, tons of original and repro parts etc. and pick up a finished one on Ebay, or down at New England Classics. Probably end up saving a few bucks, to boot.

Tell me you've gotten a better price than that. It'll be very helpful in making my decision.

Pete
Peter Whelan

Thats 37.5 - 8 hour days... hmmmm and $18,000... hey, I know...you send me $18,000 and i will send you a really nice tub....oh heck, i will throw in the wings as well... oh, what the hell, I'll include the engine!!!!!!
gordon lawson - TD 27667

Hi Peter,

My guy is pretty busy, and has several projects going, but he happened to have a slot open for a TD. I'm supplying the wood and any bad body panels, and we've already determined that the only 'bad' panel is the one that ties the two quarters together above the plywood rear panel. And quite frankly, it doesn't look that bad to me, but why have an expert help you if you ignore his advice?

My wood is approx. $1,100. The metal piece will be whatever is needed, but Moss has it for $65.95 (it is a simple part) and the quote for the rest of the work is between $4,000 and $6,000. For that I'll get a complete tub, painted. My wings, valance panels and gas tank will be smoothed, primed painted as well. I'll have to supply piping and things like the running board strips, but he will help install the tub and check the final fitting. My down payment was a third, or $1,600 and that would indicate a $4,800 finished tub, but I'm fully expecting it to go $5,500. My guy has a reputation for quality, but also for missing a date or two. I'm fairly understanding of slips of the schedule, and will find plenty of things to do while I'm waiting for everything to shake free. As a side benefit I can go over any time I would like and take pictures as he works. You can check out my website tomorrow, the first pictures will be posted.

I guess it will cost me between $6,000 and $6,500 to get a tub and all my paint done.

Warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Gentlemen:

Thanks so much for your timely responses. Having been involved in this old car thing for a while now, and also somewhat familiar with the processes, I was fairly sure what the answer would be. Needless to say, when this guy told me 18 grand, I knew he was pretty much full of it. Also, I had a fairly good idea where the actual numbers would fall.

I had my 280Z done a few years back, including minor sheetmetal replacment, a ton of dings and dents repaired, glass out, new weather stripping installed and glass replaced, two part same color respray, outside surfaces, no jams or underhood, by a very reputable, local, production body shop, (very good to excellent results). I drove it home and reassembled it. Total bill, 4500 bucks ( I supplied the OEM parts) and it gets raves wherever I go.

Granted tub work is a lot more involved and specialized, but jeez, louise!! I may have been born at night, but I wasn't born last night.

BTW, Gordon, throw in the tranny, wheels, tires, axles, interior, windshield and that cool little arm rest. Also add the title , and we may have a deal.

Thanks again all and have a great holiday. That goes to all the BBS members, as well.

Pete
Peter Whelan

Peter
You might want to call Classic Wood in Greensboro NC -PH 336-691-1344 Or
Craig Seabrook at “ The Whithworth Shop” PH 440-338-5950, seabrook@en.com
Craig use to advertise in Hemmings and NEMGTR's TSO My recollection is that he sold or restored TD /TF tubs complete with doors fitted and primed ready for paint in the range of $5,000 US$. I think you have to give him a rebuildable core tub, at any rate a phone call/ email might just make your day. I have nothing to do with either of these shops, but I’ve seen Craig’s work and it is first class. I’ve put the wood in three TD tubs and it’s fun if you like doing your own work. Roger
Roger Thompson

This add appears in the Jan 2006 edition of Hemmings Motor News. I know some of you out there are looking for a TD body tub, Here is the add:
”1951 MG TD body tub and doors, restored. No rust damage, new wood, primer with paint black interior, sheet metal, ready for paint. $4,000”
714-771-3149 CA. This might make some one a nice Christmas present. I have nothing to do with the add. Roger
Rodger T.

Merry Christmas and a Happy Hanukah guys. FYI I sent my body to a local guy who came highly recommended. He has never done a TD before but specializes in custom hot rods and from the look of some of his work he is fantastic. The down side is that he is very busy so I won’t see it again until summer. The front wings were a mess where the PO had used filler around the headlight brackets and had also backed into the left front and mangled it badly. First they were stripped to bare metal with aircraft stripper. My guy has several English wheels and has replaced all bad metal with new metal formed to fit and tig welded. I saw them before the primer went on and I was amazed. There was almost no filler and what there was, was green stuff. No bondo. All of this for $1200. The tub and other body parts have been stripped and will have the same treatment for a cost of $3500 which includes all the finish painting in BRG. I assume that things are cheaper up here in Maine but I do think this is a very good deal. $18,000 sounds to me like he doesn’t need or want the work or is just looking for someone with deep pockets. Cheers, JL

James Lea
2 West St. PO Box 25
Rockport Maine 04856

1952 MG TD Vintage Racer
1953 Triumph Mayflower
1958 Rover P4
1962 Austin Healey 3000 BT7

James Lea

This thread was discussed between 09/12/2005 and 25/12/2005

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