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MG TD TF 1500 - TD Wings to body bolts finish

Hi All,

I am enquiring re the original finish on the bolts/washers that connect the wings(front and rear)
to the TD body? Painted body colour or a type black
finish ? We know that the bolts that join up the running boards to the wings are cadmium plated according to Chris Couper's 'The Original MGTD midget'
website.

I do know that TFs originally had cadmium plated bolts
affixing the wings to the side engine panels/chassis
frame and also the bolts that connected the front wings to the running boards and rear guards.

I need some originality reference for the TD.

Cheers
Rob Grantham

Rob Grantham

This is a question that I have been researching for some time and really have not come up with a definitive answer.

I have scoured Chris's web original TD pictures and there are some with body-color painted bolts and some that appear black.

I am unsure about plated. There could have been manufactured plated nuts/bolts used.

I can document that the factory painted the frame/suspension and other bolts holding the radiator support rods, etc, black prior to the car leaving the factory. (attached photos)

This appears to have been done prior to the body being attached as pictures prior to the body going on show silver nuts/bolts and those after the body is on are dark.

Note the second photo is from a brochure, but it shows dark suspension bolts. It also shows what appears to be body-color fender bolts.

As fenders were added after the body was painted, it is possible they painted fender bolts after assembly. This would mean someone would have to have cans of body color paint to paint all the fender bolts after the fenders were put on.

Another potential is that they bought blackened bolts from the manufacturer and used these for the fenders.

Here is some of what I have found.

1951 TD Picture 23 Black bolts (I am not fully convinced this is a totally original car)
https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/UnRstr51/Thumbnails/mgtd_gallery_unrstrd51.htm

TD 11272 All bolts in the pictures are rusted, this could indicate they were just plain without paint, or were blackened from the manufacturer. (black oxide bolts tend to rust over time)
https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/TD11272/Thumbnails/mgtd_gallery_thm_TD11272.htm

TD 23834, a light color car, shows black/dark bolts in picture 94 and 124.
https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/TD23834/Thumbnails/mgtd_gallery_td23834.htm


A. Clausager's original MGT series (first edition) has, what I consider over-restored TD's in it. The few pictures of fenders show shiny bolts. The new addition only has a few glimpses of fender bolts, but they do not look shiny or black.

Looking through MG books by Chris Harvey, Malcolm Green, Richard Knudson, and John Gunnell. I could not find any pictures that clearly show fender bolts.

So after this long dissertation, my conclusion is I don't know and have not decided what I am going to do for my TD restoration.






Bruce Cunha

Bruce,

Thankyou for the effort made in response to the question on the fastener finishes on TD wing/guards
to body.

The rusty look that seems to appear over time is not
recommended IMHO!

Perhaps painting the fasteners for TDs would be the better option.

Cheers
Rob Grantham


Rob Grantham

I'm probably leaning to painting them body color. As I have not found any definitive answer, I can argue either decision (Painted or black).


Bruce Cunha

TD1172 has some CAD ones too.

I kind of favor either body color or natural (CAD).

There was even a rumor started at one time that the undersides were sprayed with some sort of oil coating during shipment to keep things from rusting on the boat. This could have caused a black oxidation or oiling like sealer too if true.

I went with CAD on my restoration because its acceptable, easier to maintain and if you need to remove the fenders (been there, done that) no damage done.



Christopher Couper

I got my TF in 1962 and it had not been rebuilt or crashed. The bolts holding the wings were just plain ordinary black. The car had two previous owners, the police and a private owner. Each week, on a Saturday the mechanic at the police station where the car was based would spray the underside with waste engine oil A good preservative.

The bolts on th3e TD were the same and we only took them apart about 6/7 years ago.

The biggets problem was with those around the rear wings which were rusted solid into the captive nuts.

I have used plated bolts and nuts as replacements but they soon get covered in mud so you can't tell the difference.

I hope this helps.

Bob Marshall
R J Marshall

Bob,
I don't think any of our group who are concerned about bolt finish are going to leave mud on for more than two seconds :-)
Not to upset anybody, same horses, different courses.
Ray Tf 2884

Ray Lee

It is clear that there are still some things on the TD that we don't have a good picture of what is original.

I was planning a trip to England to go to the British car museum and use the research room to try to find some answers. Then the lovely COVID showed up. Perhaps by the end of 2021, I can make this trip.

In the meantime, I ordered up the CDs of all the Sacred Octagon magazines since 1962. They say you can do searches on the CD. I am hoping that is correct. If not, I will be spending a lot of time pouring over the editions trying to find pictures and other information on some of the items we don't have good answers for.

I did talk to an MGTD show judge. He said that if you document why you did something a specific way and can show some evidence, they would accept it.

For instance, my oil filter will be engine red and not have decals on it. The factory pictures appear to show the filter was added and then the engine painted.

There is also a facebook page I found that is called MG Factory Abbingdon Remembered. They say there are folks on there that were on the factory floor. Perhaps even some that would have built the TD. I will post this on that web.

Bruce Cunha

With regard to TFs, original,untouched cars will show
cad plated bolts and washers affixing the front wings and rear guards. My experience with many TFs is reflected as TF9052 on 'The Original mgtf Midget' website which clearly depicts the cad plated form.

Waste oil may turn cad black! (lol)

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").

Rob Grantham

Anyone who had a hand in building the TD would nearly be 90 years old or older at this point
W A Chasser

Bill, one of the members of the Abindon site came on during the end of the TF. He reported he has 16 old friends and most worked on the TD line.
Bruce Cunha


That image in Chris Couper's post showing the rusty bolt heads,are in stark contrast to the washers, which appear to have been cad plated.

I should imagine that if the washers were cad plated then it should follow that the bolts were as well? It would be highly unlikely, that black or painted bolts were used with a cad plated washer wouldn't it?

Maurie Prior
R M Prior

Not there yet, but I am thinking about powder coating mine to match the body. What do you think?

Jim TD17744
JV Smith TD17744

It would seem odd that on the frame they would use regular bolts and then paint them, but for the fenders they would use plated.
Bruce Cunha

It's an MG, why are you trying to use logic? :-)
Christopher Couper

I can’t say for certain since my cars’ complete histories over the years is unknown. Although TD-4834s hardware had been carefully stored in bins since the early to mid sixties when it was disassembled for restoration by a previous owner. The car had gone through three subsequent owners without any restoration progress until I bout the car in 2014. The bolts didn’t appear to be painted when I purchased the car. Some were clearly cad plated while other hardware had evidence of a black oxide type finish and not having a buildup of paint. It’s not a definitive answer but merely my observation. They could have been painted upon installation. Possibly different batches of bolts. IDK.

Hardware on other cars I own or have owned were not much help. Either the chassis had clearly been taken apart before or had Rattle can “restorations”. Still other cars were just plain weather beaten to where the hardware was rusty but the chassis remained covered in paint. Which leads me back to the black oxide treatment.

During my restorations of both dad’s car and mine I chose to have everything cad plated. In the case of my car I had the cad plating acid washed to provide a bright appearance. With dads car, I had the cad left unwashed leaving the hardware a dull Gray which gives it a patinated appearance.
W A Chasser

I have had contact from a friend here in Australia who is well acquainted with TDs.

He has put forward an idea that TCs had black oxide bolt finishes,early TDs initially may have had black oxide applied then moved to cadmium plated later on in production. We know of course that TFs had cadmium plated bolts.nuts etc.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos"),

Rob Grantham

Some years ago there was a heated discussion at a UK natter regarding what type of screws were fitted to T types. Several opinions were voiced but then a man who worked on the line at Abingdon commented.

He said that when there was a shortgaee of screws bolts etc, a lad was sent with money to the local agricultural engineers (Ballard & Sons) to buy what he could get that would fit.

In my view there is a danger or trying too much to be original when there is no specific originality.

What about those who fit disc brakes, wire wheels to TDs, 5 speed boxes, and radial tyres and other upgrades? Are their cars now hot rods?

(None of the TD/TFs were fitted at the factory with these items. Tyres were cross ply, the TD was never offered with wire wheels and they were only an option on the TF).

Over the years we have all upgraded our brake cylinders, fitted radial tyres, modified the oil pump relief valve, fitted different jets to the carbs, fitted different carbs and camshafts - the list is endless. In the USA, in the 1950s Volvo engines, small block Ford V8S etc were fitted to make the cars go better.

So what is original?
R J Marshall

This thread was discussed between 15/12/2020 and 22/12/2020

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