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MG TD TF 1500 - TDC versus Mark2 TD versus TD
Could TD owners tell me the differences in detail between a standard Factory TD and the TDC/Mark 2 ?
Cheers for now.
|From memory, all had 4 extra Andrex friction shocks, larger valves (same as standard in the TF 1250), twin SU fuel pumps, 1-1/2" carbs. During production, a bulge was added on the right side bonnet for the larger air cleaner manifold, TD Mk II badges on the bonnet sides, and I think the radiator badge (or maybe the spare hubcap? not sure about this one w/o looking up) was changed from brown/cream to black and white. I'm sure there were some other things too. George|
|>During production, a bulge was added on the right side bonnet for the larger air cleaner manifold|
So says Clausager, but my Feb '51 TD/C (TD/C6000) has the "power bulge". There are some who think it was present from the beginning.
The only thing I can add to George's list is that the diff ratio was different (4.875:1, maybe?)
|The compression was also higher at 8.0:1 from 7.25:1|
|It also had the larger black and white spare tire hubcap badge and 2 reflectors on the rear bumper. I could be wrong.|
|Also had a TD MKII badge on the rear bumper. Don't see the difference on the rear tire, but then my poor MKII has been raped of it's engine and Andrex shocks. All I have left is the badging.|
|Also, they all had the elusive bucket seats and a factory Marshall-Nordec supercharger. Ha, ha, ha!|
I wish I had a Mark II, however. Cool to have the factory-installed tuning goodies.
|Here's a shot of the rear of a late TD Mk II showing the hubcap badge and the bumper reflectors:|
|Well that didn't work. Scroll down the "Feature Time-Lines" list to "New trim for Mark II" for the picture.|
|I have never seen that black and white badge mounted on the rear bumper. However what I have seen is a casting that followed the curve of the bumper with the MG logo . Casting was about 3" long and the height of the bumper.|
|The bumper badge was on mine when I bought it in 1964, and is still there.|
The business about bucket seats was addressed in an earlier mail, and the consensus was that it was only on the prototypes photographed for the publicity bumf.
|Rob, the answer is not that simple. TDC modifications were incorporated at different times during the production run. Bud|
Somewhere in my MG collection, I have a road test report on the standard TD, TDC, and standard TD with Laystal head. It provides all the specs, test speeds etc. If I remember correctly, I cut it out of a car magazine from the UK. The name I believe was Auto Car or something like that. They did a series of test on sport cars cars from the early 50's. I shall look them up and if it can be scanned, I'll send you a copy of all three. I do remember the details made for some interesting reading.
|G. L. Raham|
|Abingdon Spares shows a part 64/44 as a "plinth, MkII medallion, rear bumper" but no medallion in the old paper catalog.|
|Medalion is the same as the hood. Indicates such in the Moss catalog and says so on that MG site.|
|Our 51 TD Mk II has no rear bumper badges. They also did not all have the bonnet badge and we definitely don't have bucket seats. They are supposed to have the King of the Road headlight medallions and our radiator badge is the original and is brown and cream. Of course, there really was no "standard".|
|I just looked back at my old research... the black and white medallions and hub cap, the chrome radiator slats, bumper reflectors, and hood bulge all started with TD/C/22613.|
|>Rob, the answer is not that simple. TDC modifications were incorporated at different times during the production run. Bud|
With the paucity of records regarding TD production, nothing is simple. That's why I think some of the "gospel" is wrong.
Earl -- what's your chassis number? Does it have the hood bulge?
|The Mkll also had two petrol pumps fed by two feed pipes from the tank.|
|I am surprised that no one has mentioned that the TD Mark II has an 8 in clutch versus the 7.5 in in standard TD|
|All the later TDs had the 8" clutch....|
I found the articles and think they can be scanned. Years ago I sealed them in a semi-gloss plastic envelope for preservation. If you will send me your E-mail address, I'll send them to you.
George Raham E-mail address --- email@example.com
|G. L. Raham|
Yes, I'd like to see those. My email address is in my post headers -- just delete the "deletethis."
|Rob... we've got chassis TD/C9755, and yes, our car has the hood bulge. This picture shows it well...
|George R. I'd like to get a copy also.|
|R. K. Jeffers|
|Production of the TD mark II started in 1951 and finished in 1953, 1710 examples were produced.|
Andrex shocks were advertised, but not all cars were shipped with them, and few to North America. The whole purpose of the Mark II was to homologate it for Group 4 racing in the UK, hence most Andrex shocks found their way to the UK dealers who ordered them for their racer clients.
Bucket seats were advertised too, but I have never seen a Mark II with them. Again, maybe in the UK.
The 4.875 cwp was fitted as was the 8" clutch.
1½" H4 SUs and twin fuel pumps with siamese fuel limes from the tank, were standard on ALL Mark IIs. Larger (later, TF) valves and springs were also fitted, and the C/R raised to 8.6, but the standard TD3 camshaft was used, and not the grind that ended up in the TF. Lucas BR12 coil was fitted.
Badging on the bonnet was standard as was the bulge to accommodate the intake air duct, but badging on the rear bumpers and reflectors only became standard from chassis TD/C 22316.
Chrome radiator bars were not always standard. I read somewhere that there was no production line for Mark IIs. As Bud has indicated, if an order was received by the factory, often (but not always) the fitters would simply add them to a TD rolling down the line, and that didn't always mean chrome radiator bars. However they did become standard from chassis TD/C/22316 as well as a big muddah badge on the spare wheel.
Source - mostly from The Original MG T Series by Anders Clausager.
I know of no Laystall head offerings from the factory or any blower installed by the factory.
|Gordon A Clark|
|TD/C Production figures:|
("MG T-Series, The Complete Story" by Graham Robson)
I was at a shop yesterday where TD/C10690 currently resides. It also has the power bulge. So I think the the claim that the bulge was introduced at chassis 22613 (Clausager, "Original T-Series," pg 91, as well as factory parts literature) is disproved. Which, to me, cast doubt on the accepted timing of introduction of other Mk II features....
|Gentlemen: It is never easy to be categorical about such things, but I'm going to go out on a limb. This is my experience, based on original, non-restored TD/C's and early photos (although photos, too, can be misleading:|
All TD/C engines, whether marked TD2 or TD3, had larger valves and higher compression ratios
All TD/C's had four additional Andrex shocks, 1-1/2" SU's and dual fuel pumps
All TD/C's had the 4.875 R&P
All TD/C's had the power bulge on the right hood panel to accommodate the 1-1/2" carbs (I have only seen one TD/C without the bulge, and the hood fit badly and had no doubt been replaced
All TD/C's came with air filters - early with the stock 1-1/4 air intake manifold and smaller oil-bath air cleaner (and slotted carb flange holes to fit the smaller manifold), later with a larger manifold and larger oil-bath filter (and without slotted flanges). Many air filters were discarded for greater breathability
No TD/C's came with bucket seats
Later TD's (probably from 22316) came with chrome grille slats, MARK II hood emblems, larger hub-cap medallions, bumper emblem and reflectors
I am fully prepared to be contradicted, but am 95% or more sure about all these - especially the controversial air filters and power bulge.
Tom Lange TD/C 20963
|Sorry, TD/C 20564 - old age, bad memory...|
|Interesting call the other night... a woman had found my TD website and found my number somehow...anyway, she wants to restore her 'late' father's TD, 1953...and wanted some contacts in the area.... when I asked where the car was, she said 'in a barn in St. Catharines' (thats about 10 miles from me)!|
I mentioned it to an MG friend this morning and he asked her name...as it turned out, he knew her father and had looked at the car about 10 years ago... not in the best shape, only about 20,000 miles on it, but hard miles... and it is an actual TD Mark II....!!!
Told her I would look at it and make suggestions and I'm hoping she will give me a call....
That makes about 30 T's within a 100 mile Canadian radius!
|I have to diagree with Tom Lange that " ... |
All TD/C's had four additional Andrex shocks". I know of two original Mark IIs and neither came with the Andrex dampers; and I'm sure there are more. As I indicated, this was a homologated add-on mostly for Group 4 racers in the UK and like Tom, I stand by my comment that few made their way here.
Has anybody seen any of the so-called holologated bucket seats?
Re T's in the area
... similiar situation here in Rockburn, Gordon. I thought I had pinned down all the T's in the area, but within a 25 mile radius, I missed 2 TCs (one, absolutely drop-dead gorgeous!), and one guy just up the road from me with 5 TDs in various states -(I've seen them and reported them to your dataBase). Also learned of a TF in pieces but am awaiting confirmation.
That makes about 17 Ts within a 25-mile radius of Rockburn. Also have to add my PA now (I know, I know ... its not a T!)
Amazing. They keep popping out of the woodwork.
|Gordon A Clark|
|I think it's the woodwork that keeps popping out Gord.|
|As I see it, it's a rule that there are exceptions to every rule... |
From observation at car shows and looking at private cars, the vast majority of NA TD/C's still have their Andrex shocks (to the tune of over 90%), and those that don't generally still have the spacer blocks on the pan arms to show that they once had them - or at the very least, have the holes, which had to be specially drilled.
Andrex shocks were never a "delete" item for the TD/C; while it's possible that a few without got through when the supply was low, Andrex shocks and the dual fuel pumps were always a very visible selling point for the TD/C (see the TD/C brochure), and customers would have been very upset had they not been there.
By 'all' I suppose I mean 99%, or in this case, 1060 of the 1070 TD/C's made.
|Sorry, I mis-typed again - I mean 99% or 1693 of the 1710 TD/C's made.|
|Interesting; Have never seen a TD/C marked frame which did not have the welded-in mount points for the Andrex shocks. Have,of course, seen several without Andrex units in place-but the mounting points were always there,even if the units themselves were missing.|
Southern Missouri is not exactly a hotbed of MG activity-I was very suprised to find my MKII in a shed just outside of a small community 10 miles from our home. Even odder was when I accompanied a friend on a jaunt back to the same little town to offer an opinion on a TR3 he was considering purchasing. Standing next to the TR in an old building was a TD-poorly "restored",bobbed front fenders, and no running boards. Andrex shocks peeking from under the front end encouraged me to scape clean the dumbiron-another TD/C was found. Odd things happen-keeps us turning over rocks,eh? Dan
|If very few came here with Andrex shocks, then I have one of the few. TD/C10690 is also part of that group....|
Thankyou to everyone who has contributed to
this Thread.Confirms most additional items
on a TD/C.
Cheers for now.
|See http://www.ttalk.info/AKD834R.pdf for a copy of Section R of Service Parts List AKD834. It's the Mark II Supplement.|
There are a lot of surprises in the TDC Supplement.
|G. L. Raham|
|Do you mean things like the Carburetor (for Shorrocks supercharger) and Vertical Magneto commencing with Engine #17029? How about the 5.44 (9/49) Rear Axle at Chassis No. 12285? Or the Manual Ignition Control?|
I thought my documentation on T's was pretty complete ... apparently not.
Where can I get a copy, or photocopy but preferrably, a scanned image of Service Parts List AKD834?
|Gordon A Clark|
You got most of them but I was quite surprised by the TDC being available with a 7 1/4" clutch. I had also never heard of the 9/49 rear axle or the manual ignition control. we are always learning aren't we.
|G. L. Raham|
|Many thanks to those of you who offerred to get me the Service Parts List AKD834.|
Problem is resolved.
|Gordon A Clark|
|Not MG related. |
It appears that there are many things in factory editions of manuals. I have a factory manual for my XJS JAGUAR 1986 that mentions dual speed differentials..Nobody has ever seen one. In 1960 I purchased a MK-9 Jaguar from my neighbor(the original owner) It had a Borg-warner automatic and attached on the rear was a Laycock overdrive. Jaguar said they never made one.I have seen one other since.
A chap in our club has (in addition to a supercharged TC and a supercharged J2) an XK140 with Hydromatic. One of 4 made by Jaguar to evaluate the GM automatic.
|Gordon A Clark|
I have tried to send the " MG Test Results" to you using the E-Mail address you provided, however it would not go though. Will you send the address again to me at firstname.lastname@example.org and we will try it once more.
|G. L. Raham|
This thread was discussed between 13/11/2009 and 26/11/2009
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