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MG TD TF 1500 - TF brakes - do they require a hefty stomp?



I'm going to be a new and VERY appreciative TF owner, and will have a few questions right off the bat.

Here's my first one:

Do properly adjusted TF brakes require a pretty forceful stomp? I may just be forgetting what it's like to use manual brakes after so many years of power assisted, but here's some back story on this one:

My uncle, who had purchased on new TF in '53, but had to give it up after a couple years, has longed for one since. He asked me to find one for him, and when I did, I had it shipped to him.

He is 81 now and found that he couldn't step on the brakes hard enough to get the car to stop quickly/safely, so he had a T - series specialist guy work on the brakes a lot, with no improvement.

I went out and test drove it, and found that the brakes do take significantly more force to use than I've grown accustomed to with power brakes, but I could "reasonably" bring the car to a stop.

I'm really wishing I would have thought to find this forum and ask this question earlier, because immediately upon hearing that I could work the brakes, my uncle GAVE the car to me, and within a day had it on a car carrier to be delivered to me where I live 2,000 miles away.

I hate to think he has relinquished this TF unnecessarily - I suggested he get another mechanic's opinion, and look into possible customization of the brakes to get them to a place where he could work them safely, but he was adamant about turning it over to me.

So here I am both thrilled about owning such a car, but heart broken that it didn't work out for my uncle.



MR Ragan

Mr. Ragan
Yes, T cars require more forceful braking than modern cars, but not too forceful. My TF with properly sorted brakes is comfortable to drive and brake. If you need to apply excessive pressure, I would look at leaking wheel cylinders and fouled brake shoes, or perhaps a siezed cylinder or two. If the car was not driven for a long time, that could very easily happen. The cylinder bores can rust and sieze.

Tom
'54 TF
Tom Norby

WOW. I own a TD in which I rebuilt the entire system and use silicone fluid, and the brakes are not that hard to push. I also own a 67 Camaro with non-power drum brakes and the MG brakes are far easier to push and stop than the Chevy. I've seen threads on this forum about adding a servo into the system but can't lay my hands on any now. Perhaps someone will comment on that.

Bill
Bill Brown

Thanks for the replies - I know that the mechanic who recently worked on the brakes replaced the master cylinder amongst other things, and the previous owner - who also maintains and flies his own airplanes - kept everything in top shape and drove it regularly enough.

I'm starting to suspect that both my uncle and I both have kind of weak legs!

I'm sure you guys could easily assess whether there's any issue if only you could take this TF for a test drive yourselves.

The previous owner passes through town here (Nashville, TN) at times, so I'm thinking I'll ask if he could take it for a spin and see if the brakes feel like they used to (there was some concern that the car carrier truck drivers could've driven the car with the emergency brake on or something).
M Ragan

I agree that there should only be firm pressure needed to effectively stop a TD or TF, and not more. When I had my TD registered in NJ the inspector peeled his face off the windshield after he drove the car to test the brakes.

This is what you need to check (we can proivide more details):
all 6 wheel cylinders for smooth movement and internal smoothness and cleanliness (rebuild, replace or have sleeved)
all 3 flexible brake hoses (they collapse internally and affect system pressure - replace with original rubber type)
be sure you have clean brake shoes (they get oily and less effective - don't bother trying to clean if oil soaked, but replace or have re-lined, then arc to the drums)
be sure you have clean brake drums (see above; use a Scotchbrite pad to clean. If they need turning have the LEAST amount possible taken off)
good master cylinder (rebuild or re-sleeve)

Then I use DOT5 silicone brake fluid, and have not had a problem in 8 years. Otherwise be prepared to flush the regular brake fluid every year to remove water and gunk.

There are a number of other related things you can do at the same time, such as re-pack the whel bearings, grease the rub points on the backing plate, check suspension bushings etc., but we can help you with those later!

Tom
t lange

I second the above- a TD or TF with proper brakes should stop without that much effort, not power, but shouldn't be that hard. Tom right on- the bluing on the steel pistons fails, they rust and stick pretty much solid, fronts especially. Crude test: at slow speed on concrete, push in the clutch and floor the brake pedal- you should have 4 pretty much equal length skid marks. One very common mistake: the front wheel cylinders are installed backwards- they fit either way- the wrong way really worsens braking power. George
George Butz

I should have mentioned carefully to check all steel brake lines for dented or corroded lines. I once worked on a TD's brakes after the owner was ready to dump the car, and I found one line had been compressed almost closed (but not quite) when the car was on a lift - ironically, to re-do the brakes!

Also, bleed the brakes carefully; air in the lines will make the brakes less effective (but not a hard pedal)

Tom
t lange

I did some work on a customers car about a year ago. It was a 55 TF. It needed new fron wire wheel hubs. At first glaance I did not notice but I found thet it had MGA front drum brakes. They are 10" in lieu of 9" as is normal on the TF. I did not work on the brakes as they were actually excellent. Everything else was standard on the brakes. I am considering doing the same on my TD.
Sandy
SANDY SANDERS

Takes more force than your Honda Accord because there's no assist and your dealing with all drums instead of all discs brakes. I'd have a look at the brake lines on the rear axle while your looking it over. It's a common occurance for transport haulers to wrap around the rear axle and crush the rear lines flat, thus giving you no rear brakeing. I have read where remote servos have been added which should provide more breaking with less foot pressure.
LED DOWNEY

It is not uncommon to install the front wheel cylinders upside down and create two trailing shoes in the front. Both shoes should be leading. (in the rear there is one trailing and one leading shoe).

The cylinder should push the brake shoes into the leading part of the brake drum at the leading edge of the shoe as the drum is moving forward. The action of the drum then helps apply the remainder of the shoe to the drum.

Double check the installation of the brake cylinders.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

If after you have carried out the checks listed and still feel you need better braking you can fit a remote servo unit.

I can guarantee you will have no problem stopping the car then. I fitted a servo and the braking is superb, many of us in the UK fit servos to our classic cars.

For more information see past post called

Brake Servo Unit Installation

last posted 18 September 2010

Regards Chris
Chris Pick

Great, helpful info submitted here - thanks!

I don't have skills or tools to work on the car myself, but I imagine I will condense the suggestions and ideas submitted here, print them out, and try to get any mechanic who works on the car to carefully review them!
M Ragan

I asked the same question 2 years ago. The front wheel cylinders were upside down. The reason this happens so often is the picture in the work shop manual is very confusing. It looks like a left wheel but is really the right( or vice versa). I could barely stop the car. When I pulled of the hub and fixed the problem, I felt like I had power brakes.
N. Oakley

MR Ragan,
If the shoes were replaced by a local shop more than likley they used the harder linings. I had mine relined with the softer linings by Bob Grunau in Canada.

E-mail me of line for more info.
ecstanfield@bellsouth.net

Ed S.
TD/20709
ECS Stanfield

Messrs. Braun and Oakley;

Thank you for the front cylinder orientation tip. I looked at that illustration in the WSM. It IS difficult to tell if that is right or left wheel. One could easily reverse the position of the front cylinders.
I just went out and checked mine. All OK.

Tom
'54 TF
Tom Norby

Tom,

Then the next step would be to re-arc the shoes to match the drum. You remove the drums and the shoes and take to a machine shop who will assure that the shoes are the same circumference as the drums so they make proper contact. Make sure the shoes go into the drum they were arced to on reassembly.

I see no reason to add any kind of booster. The shoes are fine for stopping under normal driving. I routinely drive 70 mph plus. The car is easy to stop, and it stops fine in traffic.

My brake rebuild is part of my website, www.dbraun99.com

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Thanks Dave
It was Mr. Ragan who started this thread. I appreciated the tips about the orientation of the cylinders on the front wheels. Mine were set up correctly.
In Oregon, re-arcing of brake shoes is prohibited. California as well, I believe. I sure tried. No one would touch them.
However, my new shoes (2009) sure looked like the fit the contours of the drums very well.

Tom
'54 TF
Tom Norby

Sorry, Tom.

When Jay Leno wants his shoes re-arced, he sends them to a shop here in Minnesota (with the drums, or the exact dimensions he wants per set).

Brake & Equipment Warehouse, 455 Harrison St. NE, Minneapolis, MN 55413 Ph 612-378-3141

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

I have arced my own shoes by rubber cementing sandpaper to the inside of the drum and -- WEARING A RESPIRATOR - working the shoes back and forth until there is an even sanding pattern. It took a few hours to do right, but it was amazing how much better the car stopped.

Tom
t lange

Tom
Your procedure sounds like a lot of work! Wouldn't driving the car for a few hundred miles do the same thing?? I've always thought that shoes would bed themselves in perfectly, with normal use.

Tom N.
Tom Norby

Yes it would, but I was going on a trip and needed the brakes to be as good as they could be. It was actually quite satrisfying to see the shoes bedding in!

Tom
t lange

I agree with Tom Lange and Dave Braun. Until you can get the new shoes fully bedded leave a lot of room to stop! Also it takes a very heavy foot effort to get them to start seating and become effect.

Safety Fast

Tom
T. L. Manion Thomas

This thread was discussed between 24/09/2010 and 01/10/2010

MG TD TF 1500 index

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