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MG TD TF 1500 - TF headlights

Question came up today if the TF had 3 bar pl headlights from the factory?
Bruce Cunha

G'day Bruce,
I can't be too sure but think the left side headlamp of TF6288 was of "original" type fitted. Should look at the Lucas specs (lazy), but here is a chance to show some early handy work!

Kev S
TF6288


K Simonsen

HI Bruce,

TFs headlamps were not fitted with Lucas Tripod units at the Factory.
They were an after market addition by some owners.

The TF had Lucas 700 Headlamps. The originals had '700 Headlamp Made in England' at the bottom of the glass lense area whereas the later repro. 'Lucas' units have '700 Headlamp' cast into the centre of the glass lense.

I suspect the export to USA TFs had a square versus a round centre in the glass lense.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").


Rob Grantham

Rob is correct. I have a set of round emblems in my car that came from AU. Better round then wrong I always say. :-)
Christopher Couper

Square center LUCAS with logo.

700 HEADLAMP
MADE IN ENGLAND


Frank
TF1414


Frank Cronin

I was under the impression that Lucas 700 headlamps were not fitted to cars imported to the US as sealed beams were required by law and were fitted upon arrival in the US...?
J K Barter

JK. You are correct from what I can discern. You will notice on shipping pictures the cars to North America have no headlamps. Fitted locally.

But purists like the original factory lenses.

Here is a picture of my RHD lamps from AU.


Christopher Couper

As Chris noted, I believe that TFs shipped to North America had the "buckets" and assorted parts but did include the bulbs.

Documentation is confusing. I looked at headlights for MGs in Lucas Service Parts: 1954, 1955, and 400e, Lucas Overseas Training Manuals; TD and TF Service Parts Lists, TF/TF-1500 Operation Manual, and the TD/TF Workshop Manual.

The TF Service Parts Manual for North America shows "Headlamp - less light unit"

The TF, TF-1500 Operation Manuals states that the replacement bulb for U.S.A LHD is #3H1893 (pre-focused), which is a bulb for a reflector headlight. The Workshop Manual specified Lucas #301 pre-focused bulb for the reflector headlight.

The Lucas 1954 manual lists headlight F700, which is not a sealed beam, #51467A. It did not include the bulb. The first sealed beam for MGs is listed for 1960, #58499A/B, in the 400e Lucas manual.

The F700 lens is shown on page 17 of the "Lucas Overseas Technical Correspondence Course, Section 7 Lighting."
http://www.fromtheframeup.com/uploads/Lucas07_Lighting.pdf

According to ELTA Automotive Ltd history of Lucas, the UK started producing sealed beam headlights in the US. So the cars would have probably been fitted with U.S. mandated sealed beams after they reached the U.S.
https://www.eltaeurope.com/lucas-lighting-the-way-for-over-140-years/

"1960s – Sealed Beams

Although standardized in the USA in 1940; no one British company had sufficient volume to justify the expense of producing sealed beams. However in 1959 three UK manufacturers combined efforts and formed the joint company 'British Sealed Beams Limited' (40% AEI-Mazda, 20% Osram-GEC, and 40% Lucas.)Throughout the 1960s and 1970s Lucas produced sealed beam headlights for many British car manufacturers including prestige marques like Bentley, Rolls-Royce, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Bristol and Jowett.

Sealed beam lamps include the reflector, one or more filaments, and a glass or polycarbonate lens all permanently attached together and sealed."

Lonnie
TF7211

Images:
1) TF Service Parts List
2) 1954 Lucas Service Parts List






LM Cook

The headlamps with the round logo that I have seen have been for right hand drive and those with the square logo made for the European market are for left hand drive from what I have seen.... don't know if that is always the case.
J K Barter

Lonnie, your referral to the ELTA Automotive History of Lucas, the article states that it it was not until 1959 that sealed headlight beams were produced. TDs were produced from 1949 to 1953 and TFs from 1953 to 1955.

In Australia, mgtfs had the Lucas 700 semi sealed only headlights with the round centre in the glass lense. Interestingly, if you look closely at the top corner of the glass lense, you can see 'Right Hand Drive ' cast into the glass lense. A nice touch.

I suspect the 'square ' centred headlights on USA cars were also only semi sealed.

Frank Cronin, are your headlights semi sealed only ?

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rob,

TF1414 has semi sealed headlights.

The identical headlights are also on TF6688. Both cars were brought back to the US via American GI conduit purchased from Frankfurt, Germany Christian Odendahl MG dealership.


See pic 42 of Colin's TF. https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF6688/mgtf_tf6688.htm


Frank
TF1414
Frank Cronin

This is just my opinion based on factory manuals. I have no first hand knowledge or conversations with original TF owners.

Rob, you are correct that sealed beam headlights were mandated in the US starting in 1940. If none were produced in the UK, then headlight bulbs must have been fitted after the cars landed in the US.

The 1954 Lucas parts list in my previous post also notes that no bulb was included with the USA headlights. So it looks like F700 headlights with no bulb were installed in TFs shipped to the US.

I don't know what agency was responsible stateside for mandating the type of headlights to be use. Maybe one municipality approved a bulb to be inserted into the F700 headlight. Other municipalities mandated sealed beam headlights.

For concours correctness, it seems that Lucas F700 headlights or any US sealed beam headlight that was available in 1954-1955 should be accepted. One of the headlights in my neighbor's TF-1500 is Lucas with no aiming tabs. Original? I dunno. Gotta look at it for more info.

Note the famous GM Guide T-3 sealed beam headlights were introduced in 1956. They had three round tabs molded into the glass that were registered into an aiming device. So if a concours TF has headlights with the three tabs, then it has the wrong headlights.
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/documents/Multiple_Years/Guide%20to%20T-3%20Headlights/Guide%20to%20T-3%20Headlights.jpg

Right or wrong, the P700 tripod headlights look cool.

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Not a TF but the headlights on this early TD do not have the Lucas Logo in the Middle of the lens.





L E D LaVerne

Link to GM Guide T-3 headlights may be broken. Here is the pic.

Lonnie
TF7211


LM Cook

LaVerne -

The headlight in your photo looks exactly like the F700 Unit - Left-hand drive for U.S.A. on page 17 of the "Lucas Overseas Technical Correspondence Course, Section 7 Lighting."
http://www.fromtheframeup.com/uploads/Lucas07_Lighting.pdf

Lonnie
TF7211


LM Cook

Thanks Frank. Semi sealed Lucas beams with 'square' lens centre.

It is interesting to see TF9052 which also seem to have the same 'square' centre pattern on the glass lens for its headlights. A very original TF.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"), TF9177("Athos").

Rob Grantham

The requirement for lighting in the US was mainly an individual state specification, not a blanket coverage for all vehicles. New Jersey being one of the weirdest. New cars were built then sold at the dealer only to be rejected at the inspection stations for non state approved lighting. Too dim, too bright, aliments wrong. If the car came with duel tail lights, one had to be disabled! This started in the 50s. The last I remember was when cars came out with sequential tail lights in the 60s, New Jersey made the owner remove the sequential device. Of course laws were changed in various states due to lawsuits, etc, etc. Imported car were always subject to some weird regulations, as they still are today. I think California has the toughest regs today. PJ
PJ Jennings

Florida doesn't even bother to inspect cars.

Cheers

Gary
79 MGB
gary hansen

Gary, We don't have inspections here in Oklahoma either. PJ
PJ Jennings

Is there any truth to the rumour that the "Square" Lucas logo was for LHD and dipped to the right and the "Round" Lucas logo was spec'ed for RHD and was dipped left?

Has something to do with the fluting in the lens as opposed to which bulb was used.

I would love to find out what the difference is , as I have both.

... CR
CR Tyrell

This is a super thread. Lonnie great detective work.

A few comments: The round emblem lamps are definitely for RHD cars and it has nothing to do with the bulb. Mine dip incorrectly for US roads. Good for lighting up the side of the road though. :-)

California in the 1950's definitely had sealed beam lights so any removable bulb lamp was not allowed when imported. The dealer installed locally approved lamps.

I agree that either one of the Lucas 700 lamps (non tripod) or a sealed beam off the shelf lamp is acceptable for a concours car in many locations. Anyone who would ding someone for that is going too far IMHO.

California today will inspect any car that is registered from out of state. After that, except for smog checks, they don't seem to care (well they don't bother to inspect them anymore). Back in the 60's they had spot inspections along roadsides. If you even looked like you could have a problem you got inspected. My TD got the treatment often. It was fairly ratty looking in the 60's.
Christopher Couper

Ok, how about the TD?
Bruce Cunha

All of this applies to the TD as well. It's slightly possible some locales tightened their restrictions a bit during the transition to the TF but not material to the discussion.
Christopher Couper

This thread was discussed between 03/07/2020 and 06/07/2020

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.