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MG TD TF 1500 - TF Identification
| I am not a square rigger person, however, I am looking at buying an mgtf 1500, and I am beginning to feel that the numbers provided by the seller are not stacking up. I am aware that the engine is not the original, and is likely a Wolseley unit (XPAG 34878?)
The car number provided is - HDE 23/4967, which indicates it as being an - MG two seater, RH drive Export, Mid Green cellulose paint. However, the chassis number of TF9612 indicates it as being a late 1500 model. Something is not right and can someone more knowledgeable than me, advise me on this please? |
| m r prior |
| I have TF9503, built just before that chassis number, mine is 55 TF1500, the other number does not gel. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
Details for TF9612 Chassis No. TF9612 Original Engine No. XPEG/3515 Build Date 02-Mar-1955 Production Car No. HDB26/9612 Note From the production records Dave H |
| Dave Hill |
| If the engine number is XPAG 34878, then it is an MG T type 1250cc engine (although it may have been bored out to a larger capacity). Wolseley engines had the prefix XPAW, and numbers only went to 30528. However, the engine is not an XPEG 1466cc engine, and a used one would be hard to find.
The XPAG prefix is incomplete, and the full form will be shown on the centre disc of the engine number plate - and the prefix could be XPAG/TD, XPAG/TD2 (most likely), XPAG/TD3 or XPAG/TF - a photo of the engine number plate would help. For interest, T type XPAG/T? engine numbers went to 36516, and Y type XPAG/SC engine numbers went to 18456. |
| R WILSON |
| Sorry, the prefix is most likely to be XPAG/TF - unless it is a factory replacement engine, a photo would show this. |
| R WILSON |
| M R. What is the cylinder head number on this TF you are looking at ? If it is a TF1500 head, the letter/numbers should be stamped AEF 118. A 1250 originally was 16842 (5) with the number 5 stamped in only. Wolseley 4/44 (and I suspect late TDs) had the cast numbers 168422 -all cast in. cheers Rob Grantham |
| Rob Grantham |
| The engine in the TF is the original engine. At least original to TF4967. If the number on the left front extension of the chassis is TF9612, then my guess is that the chassis on TF4967 was replaced with the chassis from TF9612. Kind of a red flag. TF4967: Original Engine No. XPAG/TF/34878 Production Car No. HDE23/4967 Build Date 21-04-1954 http://www.tregister.org/view_prodm.php?chassis=TF4967 Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| The mystery deepens -
I am attaching an image of the engine with the head number, however I cannot make it out clearly, perhaps someone may be able to decipher it? I live in the New England Highland Region of Northern NSW and the seller,who apparently is an older man, lives in Victoria, about 2000klms from me and is not responding to my emailed messages. He may be an innocent in this matter, as he bought the car from the person who had it restored initially. His manner however is rather tetchy and he resents my questions, so I am emailing him. I have asked for an image of the stamping of the chassis number and also of the car number (Identification plate) etc So, from what I understand is this : He has advertised it for sale as an MG TF 1500. You have told me that the engine number matches the car number, however, the chassis number is suspect. My conclusion is that it is not a TF 1500, but a TF 1250, with a different and incorrect chassis number. I think that some explanations are required as it an offence, to attempt to offer for sale any motor vehicle, with altered chassis/body/engine numbers, unless there are legally documented reasons.  |
| m r prior |
| The thermostat housing and elbow shown in the photo are that of an XPEG 1466 engine. The plate on the side of the engine can be removed and reattached easily. The air cleaners are aftermarket Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
|
I want to thank you all for your generous assistance with this issue, and I am extremely grateful. I have since contacted the seller, who appears not to be a true enthusiast, and he kindly sent me the images I wanted and are attached here. They clearly show the car/body numbers as being that of a 1954 MG TF with the XPAG 1250 engine. The chassis number, while totally incorrect for this car/body, may be a genuine chassis but sadly does not belong to this car. I have pointed these anomolies out to him, and I still believe he is innocent of any malpractice. The person who had it restored needs to answer some pertinent questions.  |
| R M Prior |
Another image |
| R M Prior |
| Both TF4967 and TF9612 were imported new into Sydney by P&R Williams. At some point the chassis and engine have come together to make the car we see today. Personally I consider the chassis to be the 'heart' of the car and would be happy to call this a 1500 fitted with a 1250 engine. The I.D. plate stayed with the engine to avoid problems with the Victorian Registration Authorities (where cars are registered by their engine number). Which car provided the body is unknown, but I could figure that out from the body number on the body plate (attached to the tool box lid if the owner was to provide a photo). |
| M Magilton |
Interesting. P Gilvarry How did you ascertain that the elbow and thermostat housing are that of an XPEG 1466 engine ? From that photo angle at least, an XPAG TF 1250 looks exactly the same !? Rob Grantham |
| Rob Grantham |
| Sorry, my mistake, I meant to say TF. |
| P G Gilvarry |
| It is a 168425 cylinder head, and the 5 will be stamped on under the paint - it is correct for the XPAG/TF engine. |
| R WILSON |
| As always, I agree with Matthew - the chassis is indeed the heart of the car, and the way the factory identified each car. The guarantee plate can be removed easily, but the dumb iron with the factory-stamped chassis number is MUCH harder to alter. I would also consider this a 1500 car with a non-matching Guarantee plate and engine (and perhaps body, but that makes much less import), an amalgam of two different cars.
My questions would have begun with why the Guarantee plate is not fastened to the body with the correct fasteners; that's usually the first indication that something funny has happened. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| TF4967 was built with engine number XPAG/TF/34878.
TF9612 was built with engine number XPEG 3515. The chassis is definitely TF9612. The engine definitely has an XPAG cylinder head, not XPEG. I can clearly read the casting number. The Guarantee plate is a genuine plate originally fitted to TF4967. It is not the correct plate for TF9612. My factory build records show that TF4967 was originally painted Green and TF9612 was painted Grey so it might be worth a close look to see if there is any trace of either colour on the body tub. I shall be recording this as TF9612, a genuine TF1500 fitted with a replacement 1250cc engine number XPAG/TF/34878. Barrie Jones TF Registrar MG Car Club T Register |
| Barrie Jones |
| I also agree with Matthew on the chassis being the heart of the car. The car appears to have been rebuilt out of bits from 2 or more cars. Had to laugh at the number plate, as it looks like they used pop rivets to attache it! If someone just wants a driver, I wouldn't worry about the numbers, but I would agree that the price should reflect on this odd situation. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| As always, my grateful thanks to all contributors.
Because it would be MY money buying it, and because it is a car that has been cobbled together, it’s value has diminished significantly. How can anyone, hand on heart say, with absolute conviction, that a car with a chassis number and a mismatched 1250 XPAG engine and body, or a car with a matching body and engine, cobbled together with an incorrect chassis number, truly declare that it is a, TF1500? It is like the hammer and the handle – which bit is genuine? If upon my eventual demise, and my heirs disposed of it, no MGTF 1500 true enthusiast, would pay the sort of money, that is being asked for it, unless they wished to squander their hard earned. In Australia, if I was to offer this car at Shannons Auctions, I know what they would say, and I am sure, that they wouldn’t accept it as being a TF1500. If I were to enter it into a National MG Meeting Concourse event, and try to claim it as being a TF 1500, I would be mocked as an imposter. It is a disturbing situation and I am at a loss to resolve it. Walking away from it, appears the best move. |
| R M Prior |
| Mr. Prior,
I don't think I would just walk away without first discussing what you have found out on this forum and attempting to negotiate with the seller a price that more reflects the value of the car under the newfound circumstances. It sounds as if the car is in reasonable shape and would make a good driver. Perhaps the owner had no idea about the cobbling together of the major parts and is now embarrassed, but that situation may allow you to end up with some good terms for the sale. Just a thought. Good Luck, Jim |
| James Neel |
| Could be $3-5K lower as a TF1500 re-engined. Update the plate to reflect the chassis number as per factory records. All done & dusted. If no price drop, walk away. Good luck, my engine number is very close to 9612s original number. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
| Peter - except I think it is registered according to the Guarantee plate, NOT the chassis... Much harder to re-register or whatever is needed. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| This is as how I see it – and I will stand to be corrected by my peers, but………..I see three major elements in a car, starting with a separate identifiable chassis, with a number.
So, there is the identifiable chassis (element 1) then we have an identifiable body (element 2) and then we have an identifiable engine (element 3) These three elements are numbered and accepted as being legal units of a motor vehicle. If two elements combined, are a legally recognized match, (to factory production records etc) then the consensus would suggest that the car is the sum of those two elements. The differing element here, is the incorrect chassis. If the chassis and the body numbers were a match to the factory produced and numbered 1500 model, then I would accept it as being a 1500 albeit with an XPAG 1250 engine. If the chassis and an XPEG 1500 engine were a match I would accept that it was a 1500. What I cannot accept here, is that two major elements match, the body and the engine, and that is an XPAG 1250 model. The chassis is the odd item, and matches neither. How on earth, can it be recognized as a TF 1500 just because one element (chassis) makes up only one third of the total? |
| R M Prior |
| The asking price of this car isn't mentioned. For something to compare with, this is a 2017 sale here of a TF 1500. There are quite a few items on this car that aren't original. https://www.shannons.com.au/auctions/2017-shannons-melbourne-summer-classic-auction-featuring-the-ian-cummins-collect/G449B8XAUA01IQ43/. The car sold for $32,000 AU.
Was the question about the body that Matthew asked ever answered? Michael has sated; "What I cannot accept here, is that two major elements match, the body and the engine, and that is an XPAG 1250 model." How did you arrive at that conclusion Micheal? Did the seller provide you with the tool box info that Matthew was asking about? It seems that Barrie Jones is willing to accept this as a TF 1500 with a 1250 engine. He is well respected in the T Type community and his opinion does carry some weight. If it can be shown that the body belongs with the chassis then you clearly are looking to buy a genuine TF 1500 with a 1250 engine. If you do like the car, even with the 1250 engine, then negotiate a price accordingly and drive away. If the body matches the chassis, then two out of three ain't bad. At the Motorsport NSW (formerly CAMS) meeting that I attended on Saturday morning as the M.G. TTORC delegate, I can confirm that from both perspectives, we're only interested in the chassis #. Obviously you'll need to satisfy the authorities that you're able to register the car in your name. In response to your M.G. TTORC inquiry, we'd then welcome you as a member. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| I would suggest element two is the identification plate. The body itself could have come from either car (or even a third car). |
| M Magilton |
| I will throw out one other potential The dumb iron with the frame ID could have been replaced. A minor fender-bender can destroy the dumb iron. So it might be worth looking at the weld area of the dumb iron to see if it may have been changed. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| R. M. Prior: My thoughts summarize much of what has been written above.
THE CHASSIS IS THE CONSTANT, assuming the dumb-iron has not been replaced. [A replacement dumb-iron is rare and will be obvious in the welding of a replacement - I think I have seen only two.] Chassis number TF9812 is the number by which that car ought to be registered (yes, I know, in California and some other states, the engine number was used in the 50's, but not today). There is no question to me that car is a genuine TF1500, with a 1250 engine - no way around it. An engine can fairly easily be changed, but the chassis cannot. Engine XPAG/TF/34878 came from TF4967, and both match the Guarantee plate, which has been improperly pop-riveted to the tub. And the Guarantee plate does NOT match the chassis stamping. So the matching engine and Guarantee plate came from another car, it's that simple. Car TF9821 may well have had a bad engine, and the engine and Guarantee plate were simply transferred from a different car, along with the latter car's titletitle. You are quite wrong when you note that if you tried to show or auction the car, you would be thrown out as an impostor - both organizations are knowledgeable and would first look at the chassis number. They would both find a genuine chassis, with a replacement engine. Your thinking is flawed because you believe that the chassis constitutes only 1/3 of the authority of the car. The chassis is actually 5/8 of the car, the engine being 1/4 and the body tub 1/8 - if that. As for your buying the car, it all depends on how the paperwork is presently numbered - and examine the paperwork carefully! If titled and registered as TF9812, you are home free, with a replacement engine. If it is titled and registered as TF4967 or under the replacement engine number XPAG/TF/34878, you have a problem that may be difficult to overcome. If titled under TF4967 you or the current owner should inquire if it is possible to have the proper chassis number verified by the local registration authorities, and a new title issued as TF9812. If that can happen, you should pay $3-5,000 less for a 1250 engine in a 1500 car. If that change in numbers cannot happen for whatever reason, I would walk away. Since I have copies of the Production Records I have been called upon by owners and the authorities more than a dozen times to verify a chassis/engine combination, or explain why an engine number no longer matches. Believe me, I know whereof I speak. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Please people, I do not want to disagree for disagreements sake, and I respect your better knowledge. Far be it for me to question the collected wisdom here, but I must. It is a lovely car, and extremely well turned out.
The seller is asking $50,000 AUD for this car. He is claiming it to be a TF1500, but.....the car/body number is for an XPAG 1250, the engine is for an XPAG 1250, and only the chassis is from an XPEG 1500. I understand that these numbers are legally registered to this car, but my history as a restorer with other MG's goes back a bit, and I am not comfortable with buying it, and then seriously claiming it as a genuine TF1500. My principles,would over-rule the emotional attachment if I bought it. I would bet almost anything, that if I owned it, and wanted to sell it, it would be a different story, and I don't know whether I would want to be put in that position, of having to explain the discrepancies to a prospective buyer. He/she may not be as critical as me, but I seriously doubt, that someone would simply buy it on face value, without going through the critical examination, I am giving it. |
| R M Prior |
| Hi Michael. $50 K AU is a lot of dough. The TF 1500 that sold for $32,000 in 2017 was what the market would bear at that time. Was it half the car that you're looking at? I doubt it. I haven't seen signs that prices for T Types here are on the increase, or anywhere else for that matter. I understand your concern. For that sort of money I'd keep looking. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter Hehir,
Thank you Peter, and yes, it is a lot of money for a car that does not have matching numbers. Two numbers match, and one doesn't, or vice versa! As Mathew M mentioned, the car/body and ID plate could have come from anywhere so that leaves us with a chassis under a body that is iffy,albeit with a matching motor. Two out of three ain't bad! The seller has not responded to my direct questions and comments, and so I have now left it with him, to reconsider his price, as I would still be prepared to buy it, but not for what he is expecting. I hate to say this, but he is really a hard piece of work, and I have accepted defeat in this battle. BTW, my name is Maurie, not Michael, and thank you for your input - much appreciated. Maurie Prior - NSW - Australia |
| R M Prior |
| Apologies for getting the handle wrong Maurie. Good luck in your pursuit of a car that ticks all the boxes for you. Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| A friend here in Buffalo is rebuilding his fathers TF. He is using the original chassis, the original engine and a tub he bought in California.
2 out of three are original, in his case it was a 1250. It appears thst 2 cars were used to make one, I am at a loss to figure why they didn’t change the plate except to suggest that they bought a chassis only and the plate/engine combination was already in the system so they went with it. If it is being bought to make money, don’t. If it is being bought to drive the price is too high anyway. It may be possible to sort out the plate Vs registration, but I would have the seller do that, first. At $50K maybe I should have sold TF9503 in Australia instead of shipping it to the USA, but when you do the conversion it is probably about even. Peter |
| P G Gilvarry |
|
The mystery deepens - - It now seems that the engine number does not match up to the car/body number. From the Victorian MGCC websites T Type register, the engine number is noted as below: Chassis No: 9612 Engine No: 5022F4 Present Owner: XX Colour: Green Trim Colour: Beige Modifications/History Seems to have Manufactures Plate for HDE23/4967 Xpag34878. (This we already know) Has wolesley motor.(13048?) There is a conflict of engine numbers and I will attempt to re-open discussions with the owner, to establish what gives. |
| R M Prior |
| For the attention of -
Mr Barrie Jones TF Registrar MG Car Club T Register I tried contacting you privately, on the MGCC UK site but because I am not a member, it would not allow me to post an image, so, I thought that you should know, that the comment you made here about accepting TF9612 chassis and by default the rest of the car as a genuine TF1500 is fine, except that the engine number you are registering with the chassis is incorrect. According to the MGCC Victoria website's T-Type Register, that car TF9612, has two different engine numbers to the one you already believe it to be. This now makes three different engine numbers, and people may now wonder why I am getting a bit tetchy about this car. This is a cut and paste of the information.......... ....Chassis No: 9612 Reg No: 66215-H Engine No: 5022F4 Present Owner: JB Colour: Green Trim Colour: Beige Modifications/History... Seems to have Manufactures Plate for HDE23/4967 Xpag34878. Has wolesley motor.(13048?) Previous owner Peter S Can someone tell me which number am I to accept? |
| R M Prior |
| The "5022F4" looks like the casting mark on the right-hand side of the block, which includes the casting date of the block. I think the 22F4 is the date, and it means the 22nd June 1954. Other date code casting marks have been seen with one or two numbers in front, in this case 50, and at present it is not known what they mean. |
| R WILSON |
| Hi Maurie
You can email Barrie by using this link and you do not have to be a MGCC member to use it or upload photos. I know he's monitoring this thread. http://www.mgcc.co.uk/t-register/contacts/email-barrie-jones/ I agree with Roger that 5022F4 looks like the block casting date - it's located behind the dipstick - so it's nothing to do with the engine number. The engine number can often be seen stamped into the block just above the brass disc and it should agree with what's on the disc, except for factory replacement engines. It is often covered with years of paint and grime though. For factory replacement engines is often the best clue as to what the engine started out as. I've attached a photo. Regards David  |
| David Wardell |
| Maurie
To me the chassis number identifies the car- If you were bringing that car to me for a rego inspection, my paperwork would reflect exactly what is stamped into the chassis The engine number would be whatever was stamped on the engine plate or block (not a number cast into the block) If the car was currently registered under that chassis number then I'd tick it off ,But if it was a new rego (unregistered car)then it would fail the inspection because of the conflicting chassis numbers and to proceed further you would have to explain to the transport dept why the body plate has a different number to the chassis Even though it sounds like you feel it's a good car, I'm a bit worried From what's listed here-- Details for TF9612 Chassis No. TF9612 Original Engine No. XPEG/3515 Build Date 02-Mar-1955 Production Car No. HDB26/9612 ----- You have the correct chassis number Incorrect engine number--not a big deal unless you're a concourse man or untill you go to resell (value wise) The sticking point for me is the body plate conflicting with chassis number $50,000 is a lot for a non matching car however good it is- I'm not a purist, if it's a good car I could happily live with it------------at a price My thoughts are get a new body plate ,stamped to the original details as per above and just live with the fact that it's got the Woolsley engine willy |
| William Revit |
| But then TF 9612 was grey not green If you want a genuin numbers matching car I'd keep searching i think |
| William Revit |
| It does not have a Wolseley engine, it has an MG TF XPAG/TF 1250cc engine. |
| R WILSON |
| However, the engine came from a TF that has a build date of the 21-4-1954, so a block casting date of June 1954 does not match up. I wonder if the F in the build date is a badly formed B. |
| R WILSON |
| Willy R - Just so there is no confusion:
There are three numbered plates on a T-series car: Guarantee plate with stamped chassis and engine numbers Body plate with body number Engine plate, octagonal with stamped engine number I believe you are suggesting that Maurie stamp a new Guarantee plate, not "... a new body plate..." I have never seen any real utility in the Body number, other than to suggest that a body tub may have been replaced if the Body number is wildly out of sequence. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Perhaps I should have said that B in the casting date code means February, so the casting date for the block could have been the 22nd February 1954 - which would be OK. |
| R WILSON |
| Just needs someone to go have a good look at it And Tom, yes, my bad, wrong plate, I stand corrected Maurie just needs to decide if he wants a numbers matching car or not--------------- |
| William Revit |
| Why would anyone pay top dollar for a TF 1500 with a 1250 engine anyhow? |
| J K Barter |
| 50K AU which is a tad lower than 33K US isn't such a bad price for a nice TF 1250 driver. As we seem to all know the numbers displayed, one must except that this car is a nice driver fun car built from different cars and let it go at that. I don't see how one can,(sweeten the pot) on this car, but just except it as is. If the seller would lower his price somewhat, that would be nice. 5 speed transmissions, disc brakes, Volvo engines are not standard either, but we excepted them as replacement parts over the years. I would be thankful that a piece of history has been saved verses dying in a breakers yard turning to a pile of rust. JMHO. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
Since opening, and making my first post on this topic, I am rather chuffed to say, that I am now the owner of this particular MG TF 1500. I took delivery a few days ago and I am even more enamoured since I first saw it. While it might not have all three matching numbers, it is an MGTF 1500 and I don't really care as it satisfies a 62 year long, teenagers dream. Here it is......  |
| R M Prior |
| Way to go, RM!! That's the spirit. Safety Fast!! Jud |
| J K Chapin |
| Now that is a nice looking TF! Enjoy it to your hearts content and good luck with it! PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| Looks the business to me Maurie, enjoy the ride, you have every reason to be chuffed---------- Cheers willy |
| William Revit |
Hi Maurie. My name is Ralph Stewart and I am the person who looks after the database for the MG car club of Victoria( Aust) T-register. Could I get you to e-mail me or phone me, as I would like to talk to you about your car. My e-mail address is rejstewart@hotmail.com and my ph# is 03) 94343295. Cheers. Ralph. |
| R E J Stewart |
This thread was discussed between 10/02/2020 and 07/03/2020
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