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MG TD TF 1500 - TF-Lucas wiring harness ID tag - nit picky details

Discovered a brass Lucas ID band on my old wiring harness.

Number stamped is 8250810

This is attached to the 14 gauge black ground wire that attaches to the bonnet side panel on the carburetor side of the car.

Picture of the band on my new harness.

So, check your old wiring harness! It's probably still there but covered with grime.

Best,

Frank

TF1414


Frank Cronin

Nice find Frank. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

close up


Frank Cronin

Frank,
Thanks for the tip- I looked and found the brass tag on mine!
Interestingly, the number is not the same as yours-it is 8380418.
Did each harness have a serial number??
Best,
James
J K Barter

Glad to see others are still finding interesting things on our cars. Nice one
Bruce Cunha

James, unsure of the significance of the numbers or if we will ever know but I'm glad you found one on yours! I'm sending my two wire brown/black TF wiper switch wire to RI wiring so they can include it in their TF wiring harnesses packages and wiring diagrams in the future. I'll ask them what the numbers / brass band may explain.

Bruce, its a nice find as Peter mentioned too. I wonder if it's on the TD?


Frank

TF 1414
Frank Cronin

Frank,
I definitely would not have ever noticed it if I were not looking for it, on the same black ground wire as yours.

James
J K Barter

That's an old harness? It looks pristine. I would die for a harness that looks that good. :-)

Be interested in what RIW says about this.
Christopher Couper

I sent a note off to Bruce Sharman of Bygone Spares and Restorations to see what insight he has on these.

I'll edit this page with additional information once we know more about this:

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_details_wiring.htm
Christopher Couper

The picture is with the band installed on the new harness. Brass cleaned up of course....

I'll let you know what I learn.

Thanks,

Frank

TF1414

Frank Cronin

"Picture of the band on my new harness."

Missed that. :-)
Christopher Couper



Is this brass piece a sleeve or is it a band with a slot on one side ?

I am very fortunate to have wiring harnesses complete manufactured by the late Vic Longden of Perth, Western Australia. Vic's knowledge of MG harnesses was the best in the world. He was fastidious with the Lucas detail. The colours on the wiring he used back then was exact.

I have examined both TFs harnesses but cannot find any evidence of the brass sleeve/band. I suspect Frank is correct however in that this fitting would have been originally fitted.

It wold be good to get the details of form, internal/external diameter, length etc to enable one to make them up.


Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Here is the response I got from Bruce Sharman of Bygone Spares and Restorations in WA who has a wiring harness
"museum".

"I have found these brass tags on many Lucas harnesses from the 50s. Not Just MG and they are always on an Earth Connection. I am confident that they are a serial number and definitely not a part number"
Christopher Couper

I would suppose on a TD the most logical place to find this would be the ground over near the right hand horn or perhaps the fuel pump.

Someone with an original TD harness needs to see if they can find this.

I want one. :-)
Christopher Couper

Hmmm. This picture of TD19243's ground wire to the fuel pump looks highly suspicious.




Christopher Couper

That looks like it. It is very small.
J K Barter

I updated both nitty pages with this detail and used Franks tag picture. :-)

Now someone needs to make some of these. I don't even care if my number is the same as somebody else's.

If someone has one of these they don't want, email me.
Christopher Couper

Frank. Can you give some measurements?
Bruce Cunha

I saw this post this morning and hoped to get a closer look to get measurements to share. I just ran out of time focusing on the projects I did today on the TF. I just got in the door.....

I did manage to get a photo next to a penny so you can see the size scale of this piece.

I will get some measurements to post later on this week.

Frank

TF1414


Frank Cronin

More evidence of the TD having this on the fuel pump ground wire?

A close up from a factory photo.


Christopher Couper

I thought I should take a look at the old original harness off the very original TD 11272 that I sent images to Chris for his site.

On a small black wire that went to the firewall I found a brass tag.

The number is 820442B or is it 8204423 ?

The tag is not a tube Rob but a straight piece wrapped around the wire read from holding the terminal with finger and thumb looking towards the harness.

I doubt if I can find an old TF loom now but I will keep looking.





Rod Brayshaw

close up of last letters


Rod Brayshaw

tag as found


Rod Brayshaw

Rod,

Thankyou for your close up photos of the brass tag. With an original tag's dimensions I think we all might make them up fairly easily. An engraver or use of stamps could put on the numbers.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rod:

"On a small black wire that went to the firewall I found a brass tag."

Great find.

Was this the ground wire to the fuel pump or the one to the horn/firewall just below the fuel pump or another ground?

I also agree with Rob that this might be easier to produce than the tubular one.

Any way to measure the height of the numbers? I have a set of stamps to do the ID plates and I wonder how they compare in size?

It also looks like a "B" to me.
Christopher Couper

Chris, on a closer look at the brass tag I see an outline of the pliers used to crimp the tag so the last digit would be a 3. The straight line being the edge of the pliers, so the number is 8204423


Rod Brayshaw

Rod: That picture is wonderful. And glad to see it's all numbers which agrees with what Bruce Sharman stated too.

And Rod confirmed that on the TD is on the fuel pump ground wire which you can determine by the size of the lug.


Christopher Couper

I have plenty of brass sheet that looks to be the correct thickness. I also have a set of number punches but the font may not be the same. It would be possible to get within a few thousand of the correct harness number based on the numbers found on original harnesses to date and comparing those to the chassis number. This 7 digit harness number begins with 82*****. Length, shape and width of the strip?

The other point is the hole on the firewall near the horn. On diagrams published that show what goes where this hole is always designated as unused. Is this an earth attachment? Is the other one so designated, for a securing clip for the fuel line? The WSM does show the fuel pump earth attached to the pump body though. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

For the TD the sizes are 5mm wide at the ends, 7mm at the centre, and 11mm long. The height of the numbers is 1.50mm.


Rod Brayshaw

Rod: Thank you very much for the detailed information. Now I am going to have to buy another impact number set. :-)
Christopher Couper

With Rods pictures and data I have added this information to this page:

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_etchings.htm

When I get some measurements and location for the TF tag I will addend the page with that additional info.

It amazes me that we are still finding these little nuggets of information about these cars after so many years.

What a great find by Frank, James and Rod.

Frank it would be interesting if you think your tag and Rods are really the same but just installed differently. At face value yours looks to be made out of heavier (cast?) brass where Rods seems to be thin sheet stock. Both are stamped
Christopher Couper

Rod are there a couple of 'tabs' in the centre? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

It may be that the TF and TD tags are the same and it's just the close up of the photos that makes them look different and how they are installed (wrapped vs folded).

As far as the tabs go on both images it looks like there is a noticeable tab on the bottom and either none or a slight tab at the top. I suspect this was some artifact of the manufacturing process. Perhaps to align it while being stamped?

Here is a closeup of the TD tag wrapped around the wire vs folded or layed flat. It looks almost identical to the TF one.



Christopher Couper

Rod: Last question, I promise. :-)

Can you get your micrometer out and measure the thickness of the material?
Christopher Couper

I promise to take measurements when I get a chance. Work here has been crazy and I'm working all weekend in downtown Boston.

Frank

TF1414

Frank Cronin

Chris

The thickness is 1.4mm or 25 SWG

The number height is 1.8mm or 1/16"
Rod Brayshaw

I will see if I can build a dye to press these out.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce,

I would like to be your first customer for a few of these little brass gems if you produce them. !! As Rod has indicated, at 1/16" the numbers are mighty small.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
Rob Grantham

Bruce: I can be your first test case. :-)

BTW if you need your ID plates stamped, I have an unused stamp set of the right font/size. Too big for this application.
Christopher Couper

Thanks Rod. Web page updated.
Christopher Couper

looks like 1/16 stamp dies are readily available. Neighbor has a CNC laser cutter. I will see if it will cut this small.

Anyone that has one able to make a drawing of it to scale?
Bruce Cunha

Here's what I have.

Looking at this closer, the last digit I believe is a letter, not a number. The zero in the center does not match the last digit font that I thought was also a zero. It looks like a letter like in Rod's picture. In his picture you can clearly see it is a letter B. Perhaps a letter "D" on my tag?

Close up of my tag with font and dimensions similar to what Rod posted.

The depiction of my tag on the Paint program I used is the closest I could come with. The tag is not pointed on the top and bottom center. It is rounded shape.




Frank Cronin

2


Frank Cronin

3


Frank Cronin

4


Frank Cronin

5


Frank Cronin

New app on my computer. Paint 3D. Here's a better depiction of the shape of the tag.

Measurements are the same.


Frank Cronin

thats it! all done editing!!


Frank Cronin

Brilliant Frank ! Great detail on your originality find. Rod and Bruce also contributing important information and production possibilities.

Rob Grantham
TF3719( "Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Bruce I would imagine the Stamos were metric sized maybe the same size as the “2” stamped on the the early XPAG/TD 2 brass engine buttons I think they were 3mm

I’ll have to look through my remnants of old harnesses if I didn’t chuck them. Sadly I didn’t take notice of the bands when chopping out old harnesses Probably just chuck them in the trash since they weren’t serviceable.

Peter one of the unused holes is for securing the paired fuel lines on the MK II. Depending on when the firewall was built the bracket could have been bolted or riveted to the firewall. I can dig out the firewall to TD/c 16920 to show this detail. TD/c 8151 firewall is at the paint shop.

If anyone is going to the trouble of replicating these bands I’m up to purchasing several

Cheers

Bill Chasser
TD-4834
W A Chasser

Frank. What about that funky tab at the bottom?
Christopher Couper

The diagram is great. I am taking it next door to see if the CNC can cut this small. If so, I will have a bunch made.

If he cant, I will see about manufacturing a punch of this shape.
Bruce Cunha

The tag on my wiring harness (TF) has no funky tab on bottom or top.
James
J K Barter

Bill, Rod notes that the number height is 1/16" or 1.8 mm. I'd be interested in a few of these as other restorers here would probably fit them. It does seem though that there is a thicker bit in the middle that isn't on the drawing? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Since there seems to be such interest in this tag- I flattened mine out to get a better look at it. The "funky tabs" appear to be just artifacts from the stamping as was suggested earlier- just irregularities from stamping them out.
Best,
James


J K Barter

James,

Was your brass tag just folded over in the middle or was it more a rounded
fitting ? There seems to be two(2) different forms.

Thankyou for the effort gone to in presenting your tag.

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rob,
It was rolled onto a tube shape, I assume sometimes less motivated workers just folded'm over and crimped them on. i rolled it back and re-installed it as it was-on the replacement harness.
James
J K Barter

I would imagine that there would be at least 3 or 4 different tag numbers related to TDs. That being with or without turn signals and TD or TD/c
W A Chasser

Bill: According to one expert that has seen many of these, every tag has a unique number for it wiring harness.

James: Great picture and thanks for doing this.

Bruce: You need to introduce these tab flaws into your reproductions. :-)
Christopher Couper

This thread was discussed between 29/04/2019 and 18/05/2019

MG TD TF 1500 index

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