MG-Cars.com
MG TD TF 1500 TF Starter End Cover Paint BBS discussion at MG-Cars.net
MG-Cars.net
Welcome to our resource for MG Car Information.
Recommendations
Parts
MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.
MG TD TF 1500 - TF Starter End Cover Paint
| Was the end cover on TF starters originally painted? (the part that touches the engine). Looks like paint could insulate the ground contact. Or, was perhaps just the lip was bare? I may need to scrape some paint from my freshly painted starter. Thanks, Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| Good question Lonnie. I would think that the whole starter would have been painted at one time. But I have seen starters with natural end plates indicating that the body was painted and the end plates put on. The TD Generator had an engine red front bracket. Why? I don't know. I blew up a factory picture of the TD starter, and it is unclear to me if the end plate was painted or not. Does it looks like there is a difference in the color of the body and the end plate? I thnk it may.  |
| Bruce Cunha |
I think I am seeing a bare metal end with some overspray from the sides.
 |
| M Magilton |
| I would think it's safe to say that during production runs of the starters and generators they hit the spray booth as one piece. Would not make sense for the manufacture to paint individual pieces seperatly and then assemble,time consuming and cost overrun considerations, they weren't building these cars using Rolls specifications. JMHO, PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
Here's a couple pics of Lucas starters, one from a TD and one from a Sunbeam Alpine. Hard to tell if the TD was painted or not, the Sunbeam surly looks painted. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
Sunbeam, |
| PJ Jennings |
| Thanks guys,
I looked in some Lucas manuals. May have found the answer: Looks like the end cap is painted on a M35G starter on page N1 in the Lucas Equipment and Spare Parts Master Catalogue. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oj3X9cAgFbgFKuiT61KjV2G6lLeXiuRY/view?usp=sharing A little hard to tell in The Lucas Overseas Technical Correspondence Course: Section 2 - Starter Motors http://www.fromtheframeup.com/uploads/Lucas02_Starting_Motors.pdf However, the Correspondence Course emphasizes the importance of a good ground strap(s). Paul, that's a gnarly Alpine starter! Lonnie TF7211  |
| LM Cook |
| That Sunbeam is just an authenic original Lonnie!LOL! |
| PJ Jennings |
| Bruce -
Regarding the red paint on your red painted generator front bracket. I agree, that it doesn't make sense for the bracket and frame for the drive end of the generator to be painted red. The bracket is listed on pages D11 (TD) and D2 (TF) of the Lucas Equipment and Spare Parts Master Catalogue. The bracket and frame for the drive end would have to be installed at the Lucas factory and probably painted black like the rest of the generator. The Lucas Catalogue does not list the pulley and fan. The pulley and generator fan were supplied by the engine plant and were therefore painted engine red. They are shown Plate F in the TD and TF MG Service Parts Lists. The pulley/fan would have been mated together at the Abingdon plant. However, photos of unrestored TF9052 show the bracket and frame painted red along with the support, pulley, and generator fan as did your TD generator. Doubt that the guy at Abingdon who painted bolts black also had a red paint bucket for the generator bracket and frame. Sources: > TF9052 generator https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/TF9052_051.jpg https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/TF9052_052.jpg https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/TF9052_053.jpg https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/TF9052_054.jpg https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/TF9052_058.jpg > Lucas Equipment and Spare Parts Master Catalogue https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oj3X9cAgFbgFKuiT61KjV2G6lLeXiuRY/view?usp=sharing > TD Service Parts List, Plate F https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxisXBEpc-IWQkR0ZVdpRmVsSU0/view?usp=sharing > TF Service Parts List, Plate F https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxisXBEpc-IWbzBTM1RpTDB1ZEk/view?usp=sharing > BBS Thread Title: Generator fan change date, Matthew Magilton's posts Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| I suspect you will get all the ground you need from the bolt threads and lock washer contact. |
| Christopher Couper |
| I agree with Chris. Leave the backside unpainted and where it's mated to the bell housing also unpainted and bolt it up. Cars I've seen this rear plate on the starter is painted black. In fact, there really isn't anything that's under the bonnet of a TF that isn't painted less radiator hose and Jubilee clamps. Heck... they even painted the nail heads black on the bonnet rest rubber. Frank TF1414 |
| Frank Cronin |
| "they even painted the nail heads black on the bonnet rest rubber." I could never tell if this was blued nails or black paint. Went back and zoomed in on one of the original high res images and saw evidence of both. Of course the owner could have dabbed a bit of paint on some of the ones that were rusting a bit but I did not see any evidence of that. Just some paint remnants over a blued nail head. |
| Christopher Couper |
| I would be cautious of using Lucas catalogs for evidence as they will be using their prettiest showroom examples. My theory for the red paint on the front of the genny is that they simply put a sleeve over the body of the Generator and everything else got red when they painted the engine. This would also explain the paint runs on the pulley. |
| M Magilton |
| I agree about “pretty” photos of parts in the Lucas and in other catalogs. Weren’t the engines painted at the engine plant before being shipped to Abingdon? Was the generator mounted at the engine plant or at Abingdon? That would address the possibility of a mask over the generator. Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
Found this pic of a new old stock starter motor
 |
| William Revit |
| I think the masking sleeve has some credit. It would be easy with the generator to slip a sleeve over the installed generator. But if that is the case, it would also be as easy to do the same to the starer. Here is a still from "Safety Fast" The TD Generator is the same shade as the engine. To me that indicates it was red. The Oil filter was also painted after being put on. So at least the first oil filter on the car was engine red. I don't know if that applied to the TF.  |
| Bruce Cunha |
| I will throw out one of the oddities I have found in the factory photos
Abingdon had an engine test facility. I do not know if every engine was tested prior to installation, but look at the photo of an engine on the test stand. The early TD has an aluminum pulley. I also have good photo evidence that the front timing chain cover was painted red at the factory (this makes total sense from a production standpoint. You put the engine together and paint the entire engine. So, how come the timing cover, and it appears the generator pulley are bare aluminum on the test stand? Seems very odd they would put the engine fully together, carbs, manifold and distributor prior to painting.  |
| Bruce Cunha |
| There must have been a partial pull-down after testing, probably including a timing chain inspection. Painting followed. The starter may have also been sleeved. See my TF engine image above, in particular the starter-block mating surfaces where it bolts on. Both surfaces seem to be the same colour, meaning that a possible sleeve did not cover the starter mounting plate, just the body and end of the starter.  |
| M Magilton |
| A bit off topic but do you all really believe that engine test was performed on all engines? I seriously doubt it. I suspect it was used periodically testing random samples and when engineering was planning on making some sort of change to the design. I have absolutely no evidence to back up my claim. Just speculating knowing how tight the margins were and how they would just fix things after delivery if necessary with a dealer. Testing each engine would be very costly in terms of time etc. |
| Christopher Couper |
| Could be correct Chris, but if you look at the picture, there are at least 4 and perhaps a full floor of engine test stands. |
| Bruce Cunha |
| I personally don't think all engines hit the test stand, not cost effective. Now if they did test an engine and it failed, did they replace it with a gold one, which I doubt or were they only put in a car that the engine failed for whatever reason? So many questions for these cars and none of the guys who built them are with us anymore and records over the years have been lost. Sad. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| PJ - My question is about when you are speaking? The Production records note that engines were periodically changed, probably after failing to start at the end of the line, or were rejected after having been test-driven. Certainly after the chassis and engine numbers had been entered into the Production ledger, and before the car was dispatched. The replacement engines were other normal engines, pulled out of the stores. Afterwards, the defective engines were rectified and can be shown to be installed into cars later on in the production run (that's why you can occasionally find an engine 5,000 numbers beyond where you would expect it to be).
It is my perception that Gold Seal replacement engines were dealer-installed. I equate them with "Crate Engines" today: a factory-guaranteed engine but not installed by the factory. I also think it unlikely that engines were all run on the test bed, as there would be the far fewer engine failures on the line, as documented in the Production Records. It seems to me that the photo shown could just as easily be of rectified engines being tested, as they would logically need to be tested. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| Interesting observation Tom. The ID plate would also have to have been changed to reflect the different engine number. Could it be that the engine was tested and it was not stamped with the engine ID unless it passed? |
| Bruce Cunha |
| Or you just restamp the ID plate. It's not like they were pre printed. |
| Christopher Couper |
| "Or you just restamp the ID plate. It's not like they were pre printed." The engine number is always stamped into the block just above the hexagonal ID plate on the TD at any rate. So just re-stamping the brass plate would have created a mismatch surely. Am I missing something? Cheers Peter |
| P Hehir |
| I have never seen a factory re-stamped TD plate, where an engine number was X-ed out and another substituted. There is no clear information on how, when or where the two sets of numbers on the Guarantee plates were stamped, but I have a theory. I assume the chassis number was stamped first (it must have taken a special press to mark something like the chassis), and a Guarantee plate was stamped to match and kept with the chassis as it went down the line. The Guarantee plate engine number stamping would have been added very late in the line, once the car was assembled and the engine installed, There are often different fonts for the chassis and engine numbers, which supports my theory.
IF an engine was rejected after a car's assembly was completed, an entirely new plate would have been stamped, in my opinion. It would be interesting to see such a Guarantee plate from a car with a replaced engine, and see if the stamps look different. Peter - two things: first, the engine number was not "always" stamped on the block; I have seen hundreds of engines without the number on the top of the plinth. And second, the discussion is the stamped engine number on the Guarantee plate, not on the engine tag or block. Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
When pulling the car apart, I saw numbers on the engine block. Fortunatly everything matches. PJ |
| PJ Jennings |
| Let's throw a little more fuel on the engine testing fire ...
Morris Motors films on British Pathe imply that every engine was tested. +++ "POWER", MORRIS MOTORS 1930-1939 Short Summary: A fairly technical discussion of how engine parts for Morris cars are made. https://www.britishpathe.com/video/power/query/morris+power YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieF3d_YBUh4 > Engine testing at 17:00 minutes +++ "MAGIC IN METAL" REEL 3 1960-1969 Short Summary: The making of a crank case sponsored by B.M.C. https://www.britishpathe.com/video/magic-in-metal-reel-3/query/magic+in+metal YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWgni73XQ7M > Engine testing at 8:00 minutes Lonnie TF7211 |
| LM Cook |
| I don't doubt you for a minute Tom, but I didn't think my block had a stamped in number either until I stripped the block for painting. Odd though that they would stamp the number on some blocks and not others. How then did they identify them, especially if they'd failed at some point and been pulled out on the line? Here's a pic of a TD block with its hexagonal brass plate and the number stamped both on and above it, although it is difficult to read under the paint. This is in a Sydney car, not mine. I did misunderstand that the thread had moved on to the location of the engine number on the bulkhead mounted plate. Apologies. Must be the Lyrica. Cheers
Peter TD 5801  |
| P Hehir |
| Peter - my suspicion is that the engines received their numbering on brass tags at the workshop where and when they were assembled, since the brass tag had to be affixed from the inside of each block with a split pin. I have no explanation why some blocks were plinth-numbered and others not, but many engines are documented as un-numbered.
Once so tagged with the brass number plate, engines always kept their numbers. That's why the production Records document engines that had been judged defective and removed from cars, and that re-appear installed into cars many hundreds or thousands of chassis-numbers later, but still retaining the original, lower engine number. I don't have my papers in front of me, but will document that later today, with a few examples. Gold Seal engines were treated differently, and were numbered in a different sequence of numbers. I HAVE seen Gold Seal engines showing an original engine number stamped on the plinth, but where that number has been superseded by the new Gold Seal number stamped on Gold Seal plates. Still so much to be learned! Tom Lange MGT Repair |
| t lange |
| True Tom. So much to be learned (and shared) which is what I love about this forum. I'm not that far away now from attempting to have my pride and joy re-registered again in my name. This last happened in 1970. The RMS here don't keep records that go back that far so registering a car of our vintage here can be a real pain, as absolute proof of ownership is required or it just can't be registered, at least here in NSW. Not only that but a blue slip will ONLY ever be issued when the stamped engine number can be pointed to on the block. The octagonal brass plate isn't sufficient. They insist on a stamped number on the block that matches the Guarantee plate, which mine does. Fortunately I still have a few beaten up copies of the local T Register mag which dates from 1969 through to 1971 listing my car with its chassis and engine number and me as the owner. So I should be OK.
Apologies Lonnie for straying so far from your original poser. The question of ensuring electrical contact/ground/earth, call it what you will, has always intrigued me, especially where contact is to be made on painted surfaces. (Yeah, I know, just remove the paint, but that only deals with half of the problem). I've raised this in the past, especially with the + earth connection at the battery box. I did get answers but none that really satisfied my anal nature. A recent post showed what can happen when electrons decide to find their own path along choke cables and the like. The little sods can create havoc. :-) Cheers Peter TD 5801 |
| P Hehir |
| Peter: I think Tom cleared up your question but I was referring to the car plate that has the chassis number and the engine number. That plate can be made up at the last minute once everything is complete or it can easily be swapped out and a new one made with the original chassis number and a new engine number.
BTW I have stated this before: My car has the original brass engine plate but a careful observer will note that that the stamped number in the block is many units higher. In fact my 52 TD has a later 52 engine. Because my car is registered to the engine number the repair shop pried to old tag off of the block and put it on the replacement. It appears the AU inspectors are probably more savvy than the ones in Calif in the 50's. :-) In this poor picture you can see my engine tag as 19988 but the block starts at 212xx.  |
| Christopher Couper |
This thread was discussed between 10/11/2019 and 14/11/2019
MG TD TF 1500 index
This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.