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MG TD TF 1500 - The Good, the Bad, the Fugly …and a few brake ques

The Good ….Izzy stopped a few inches from the “cell phoning suv” that backed out in front of us the other day! Lost a little tread on her shoes …but stopped!
Heart artries (on me) all cleaned out from adrenalin rush.

The Bad… After our little panic stop the left front brake was dragging. As I was about 200 miles from home …tyme for a little roadside investigation. Forward brake cylinder was “extended” and sized. Had to remove “clip” in photo to allow free wheel spin again.
Got me home, but now other cylinder is leaking as well. Installed re-build kit …but still leaking.

The Fugly ….Pistons and cylinders show signs of pitting and fluid was (to put it nicely) fugly!

With all the talk lately on here about re-builds, White Post Restorations sounds like an excellent way to go. Very impressive!

The questions:
The clip in the attached photo does not appear to be a “standard item” according to parts books. Is this an aftermarket upgrade for better bake adjustment? (shoes are like new)

My plan is to remove all cylinders (6) and master, ship them off to WPR for rebuild.
Anybody out there do this and have a ball park estimate on cost? (All 6 cylinders & master).

Feelings / Tips on purging the system and then running either synthetic or DOT 4?

Figure if I’m going to do it …I should do it right. I know this subject has been beaten to death on this BBS …but any tips from you that have been there / done this appreciated!

Should I leave my “clips” on the cylinders when sending them to WPR?

Cheers,
David



David Sheward

David,

Send me your e-mail address off-board. I have a rebuild write-up you may find helpful.

Larry
Larry Shoer

David - That "clip" looks like a shim that was made up to shim out the rear brake cylinder. Since the rear brakes use only one cylinder to activate both shoes, the adjuster will run out of adjustment before the shoes are even close to being worn all the way down and shims are placed in the adjuster mask give extra travel to the adjuster. The use of these shims on the rear brake cylinders is a reasonable way to get full use out of the rear shoes, but use of the shim on the front breaks is not a good idea and could wind up with the shoe material being completely worn away, causing metal to metal contact.

Disclaimer: Since I haven't seen the rest of the cylinder/adjuster this is really just a guess on my part, but the "clip" does not look anything like any of the normal parts associated with the front brakes. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

David...
Check on the ID of the brake drums.. Standard is 9". I think the max oversize os 9.060. Then you might have to get a thicker lining and fit it to the drum. It will be hard to find a brake-shoe re-arcing machine any where these days.
Some people have even glued sandpaper to the inside of a drum and rotated it to adjust the shoe fit.
Sandy
SANDY SANDERS

David , there has been reports of problems with using silicone (DOT 5) brake fluid in relined cylinders. Seems that although the sleeves are a press fit, the silicone is viscous enough to seep between the sleeve and the housing. I think that some of the repair shops that do this work have this caution and do not warranty for silicone. Even if one is planning to use DOT 3/4 fluid, this seems to be a possible problem.

New brake cylinders are available and probably are price competitive with the cost of resleeving and then the cost of a rebuild kit. There are two brand new rear cylinders on eBay now with a starting bid of $35 for the pair.

The price of a new master cylinder may be cost competitive?, and a sleeved master "may" be better in the long run, if the sleeve is not distorted when pressed in ; and it doesn't seep - but this is such a bad job, I would also weigh that in the equation of just putting in a new one.

Food for thought
Dallas
D C Congleton

I would have to go for the new repro wheel cylinders now as they are so cheap. I have 3 White Post sleeved front cylinders on my car (have been on ther for years), the 4th did leak with silicone fluid. In the past WP didn't want you to use silicone, not sure about now. I like my lifetime guarateed Master they did, with the serious dust boot and evidently brass piston. Cars in our humid climate only seem to get a few years out of any of the original cast cylinder bodies, much better life with the brass sleeved, and no problems I have seen (with admittedly small sample size!) George
George Butz

I also went with new repro wheel cylinders in the rear, but re-sleeved the fronts and the MC. No problems with using DOT 5 (silicon). I had my shoes re-arched to match my drums at Brake and Equipment Warehouse in Minneapolis. The info is on my website in the Brake Section. Not sure what it would cost to ship the heavy drums both ways, but re-arching was one of the cheaper things I did on my car. I'm not sure about the allowable amount of turning a drum can take, but there is enough meat there to transfer the heat of braking with a lot of turning. I surmise that the allowable amount Sandy quotes is specifically related to the arch of the shoe in the newly turned drum.

The 'adjuster clip' you show in your picture looks like something someone installed because they lost or broke the original item.

Today, if I had front disks, I would consider some of the new Synthetics. The same properties we love in Silicon (won't absorb water and kind to paint) but much higher temperature points. Otherwise, I remain a happy Silicon brake fluid user, and Tommy stops as well as he goes.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

I'll have to pull my hubs again and post a pic.
The original adjusters are in place...these "clips" are on the non-adjusting side of all 4 cylinders.
Did not see them listed in any of the exploded parts diagrams I have.
Haven't pulled the rears yet to see if they are on there as well.
When the brake seized after my panic (and I DO MEAN PANIC!) stop only way I could get her to stop "swimming like a one legged duck" was to remove the clip that was on the other (non-adjusting seat) end of the forward cylinder that was stuck in the engaged position. That gave me enough adjustment to get the hub back on and was at least working from the back cylinder. Not "well" ...but at least somewhat working.
Not sure I'll get to it today...contractor that is 3 weeks late is supposed to be here with kitchen counter tops today....again!
Cheers,
David
David Sheward

David,

This clip is part of the wheel cylinder, from memory, it is either crimped or pressed into the aluminium body.

John
J Scragg

John is right on about the clip- it is part of the cylinder. It keeps the heel of the shoe from wearing into the soft body of the cylinder. George
George Butz

"This clip is part of the wheel cylinder, from memory, it is either crimped or pressed into the aluminium body."

That's why it looked so familiar! Without it being in place, the shoe that is butted against the end of the cylinder that cam from will not have sufficient adjustment range and will not make contact with the drum. The clips are not available as they are an integral part of the cylinders, not a replacement part. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Dave......I did my re-sleeve myself. Bored out the Alum. Cylinders .030 and sleeved with brass sleeves which were bonded in with a special Hi-temp Loctite which also forms a seal around the sleeves so they cannot leak.
I have the brass tubing if you want some and the details to to do the work. As far as brake fluid, I use Dot 4. Silicone is just a little overkill in an MG

Clips are fitted onto the Alum, by crimping the ears on each end. Just get some new ones.
colin stafford

"Silicone is just a little overkill in an MG"

Actually I believe the opposite is true. The properties of silicon brake fluid lend themselves perfectly to an occasional driven car with low brake temperatures. It is less ideal in cars with disc brakes (higher temps) or ABS systems. It also does not absorb moisture and will not harm paint if it leaks onto a painted surface during filling, or under operation. I would suggest that if ever an application for silicon brake fluid existed, it would be our TDs and TFs.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Here you go:

Five disadvantages of silicone brake fluid:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/351359/five_disadvantages_of_silicone_brake.html

and Five advantages:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/351936/five_advantages_of_silicone_brake_fluid.html?cat=27

Dallas
D C Congleton

Interesting points (disadvantages)....however....

Compressibility
Having only my leg to measure...I can tell no difference between one and the other...my brakes are extremely firm...

Moisture
Not sure about this one...with other brake fluids you get pitting and seizing, etc.... thought silcone prevented this?

Compatibility

This is sort of a silly comparison and could be said for both...

Anti-lock Brakes

N/A

Sealing

I went over all my connections when I installed the lines and didn't know silicone leaked easier...just tightened them normally and didn't have a leak...


gblawson(gordon)

This thread was discussed between 14/09/2009 and 16/09/2009

MG TD TF 1500 index

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