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MG TD TF 1500 - Tub Repair Modifications

Ok, I'm repairing the tub on my latest find. As an engineer/physicist, it occurred to me that one could rebuild the tub to a higher level of strength than in the original manner. I have Schach's, Greene's and other books, but no one mentions using angle brackets, mending plates or other techniques for tub wood repair; other than filling holes with dowels, using glue, and the turnbuckle fix for doors.

Does anyone have any hidden mods to suggest? After all, we use Grose jets and some people transistorize the SU fuel pumps, so there must be some clever approaches to tub repair using non-standard techniques.

Ira
Ira Spector (PA)

Ira,

The tubs are meant to flex during driving so non-standard fixes, i.e., glued joints, angle brackets, etc., might not work as well as the old fashioned fix of dowels and new screws.

Gene
Gene Gillam

Interesting question...i think 'higher level of strength' is the interesting phrase...

I have to think of a well made chair...one that is a hundred years old and has no fasteners of any kind...just wood with well made joints...and hide glue!

I think the frame of the tub, once it is trued and glued and then sheathed in the metal skin, can't get much stronger... or doesn't need to be any stronger. The original design is pretty darn good?

I would be concerned adding brackets and things might introduce new stresses and break the joints....keep thinking of chairs that have had angle brackets added and have legs breaking off....

Its late and i'm rambling....good question!
gblawson(gordon)

Some of the Pre War tubs were supposed to flex with the narrow chassis, but I would be very concerned if my TF tub was flexing. They even added an iron hoop to the chassis to stop that sort of thing.
If you want to strengthen your frame, I say go for it. And you can use much better lasting wood than that soft Ash which was used because it was a fast growing cheap crop and easy to machine.

Cheers,
Matthew.
Matthew Magilton

I have a friend who repaired his T-Series with some metal reinforcement in the lower sill beneath the door precisly because he didn't want to remove the tub and disrupt so many aspects of the car. I do agree that the tub is plenty strong as it is on a TD and TF, and considering that most of our cars will never again sit out in the elements in an ignored state, the wood construction is probably more than adequate, given today's preservation methods.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Ira,

When I rebuilt my TD a few years ago (now with a new owner and replaced by a 1930 MG M Type)I stuck the metal panels to the wooden frame using polyurethane automotive adhesive. I think the stuff is used to attach skins to doors on modern cars. It takes some time to set and you can "push" the panels to get a good fit. I quite literally wedged the doors and quarter panels using lengths of wood against the garage wall. When the glue had set I attached the panels using ring nails. Being a modern formulation the adhesive does not set rock hard but does stiffen the body. The doors on my car fitted perfectly without using turbuckles.


Cheers

Jan T
J Targosz

Ira,

As already mentioned,if the Body Tub is re built using suitable wood (Tasmanian Oak is very suitable)
and attention to fit detail is undertaken,the TD/TF Body Tubs are stong.I have replaced every 'stick' on our current TFs with pleasing results.

However,during a rebuild a mod which also really stops much of the problem of ongoing door sag overtime,is to weld an extra 'strap' of metal bar to both sides of the Rear Tie Bar where the Door Hinge Bolts /Nuts come through.The original 'tin' pressing here ala Factory is not substantial enough in this part of the car,new wood or not.The bar can be 1/8" in section and makes a better purchase for nut tensioning.The same approach can be used on the left and right hand Door Strengtheners.

Hope this helps.

Cheers for now.
Rob.Grantham

Rob Grantham

I agree that the tubs on our cars are pretty strong and lets face it, they will never pass a vehicle safety crash test! One place that could use some attention is, as Rob says, in the areas where the hinges and the door locks are fastened to the frame. They take all kinds of abuse and as the wood members expand and contract with the seasons, age, and different degrees of humidity, the bolts are constantly loosening. Eventually the bolts seize in the blind nuts and its downhill from there!
Steven Tobias

I djd somewhat like Rob and used 1-inch angle iron behind both the post in the door and the tub. Both of these were drilled and tapped 1/4 in BSF for the hinge screws so the doors could be reomoved without removing interior panels (ie: replaced the interior nuts with the threaded holes in the angle iron, the angle iron is held in place by a wood screw from the "back" side)

the door check eas also odified by replacinc the pivot pin with a threaded one that can be removed so the check can come apart for door removal.
Don Harmer

I did see a wonderful mod on one of the BBS member's TD, that I will incorporate in my TF Bottom Main Rails and door Hinge Pillars (when my ordered wood arrives from Mr Goodwood in the Carolina's).When George did his restoration he removed the 3 screws that should hold the 2 wood pieces together and made a small gusset plate connecting 3 bolts welded to the plate with washers and nuts on the other side that REALLY stabilized his doors. The doors really close with a nice "thunk". I'm not sure if George inset the gusset plate, into the wood, or allowed it to remain on the surface? George?
Best Regards
Rod Murray 54 TF 3006
Rod Murray

Rod,

The mod you mention above, made a great difference to the stiffness of the vertical wood member that the doors are hung on. The plate was recessed into the wood so the metal skin would fit flush to the wood frame. The complete wood frame is all original with the exception of the tank backboard and the rear bottom rail under it. These two pieces could have been used, as they only showed a small area of deterioration. I was somewhat amazed to find how poorly the wood frame was fastened together. All the steel screws were replaced with cadmium plated screws, one size larger, and the small nails for the metal to wood, were replaced by copper nails used in boat building. The wood was soaked with preservative before assembly. The Whole job was time consuming as many of our members have experienced, but I was determined not to have to do this again. The tub is still sound with no rattles but then again the car does not endure the same type usage it did in it's earlier life. We are both retired and just enjoy rides in the moutains, with lots of good memories [when the snow is gone].

George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

Ira,

While I have never restored a tub, I do know a bit about hanging doors. The entire T-Series door is a nightmare as it takes a lot of abuse.

For the door hinges, I strongly endorse the method George Raham has made as it allows the use of metal screws in place of wood screws, and more importantly, you can use metal screws that pass entirely through the wood member and come out the rear; again using at the rear, another the metal plate. This syetem also allows for periodic tightening of the hinges, maintaining the geometry of the door.

The other Achilles heel is the striker plate, and again, I would revert to the use of metal screws as again, it allows for adjustment over a long period.

However because this wood member backs on the body, one is limited in not being able to pass entirely through the wood member and secure the striker plate in the same way as the hinges.

Rather, a new product a "threaded insert rivet nut with splined body' - see:- http://www.rivetsinstock.com/rivet48.htm, allows the splined insert to be pressed into a drilled hole, limiting turning of the metal screw in the wood. I haven't done this, but I know of a chap in Montreal who is restoring an SS100 who raves about it, as it is both very robust and adjustable. And he combined the insert with some epoxy glue.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

I used threaded inserts on both the bonnet hinge brackets and the door latches. I increased the effectiveness of the inserts by adding epoxy to the installation. You can get them at many wood working shops and hardware stores. http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=363&cookietest=1 A hole is drilled and the brass insert is threaded in. Instead of trying to thread the soft insert into the wood using the slotted top surface of the insert, I screwed in a fastner with a locking nut and threaded in the insert with the fastner.

The idea came from my good friend Mike who along with our buddy Gary, helped me with the finish on my tub, and had used them i the past with great success.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Gordon,

The "threaded insert rivet nut with splined body" item in your thread above, sounded very interesting but when I went to the address, it advised that "the page could not be found". I would ask if you could confirm the address noted, as the insert would be helpful on a future project. Thank you for the information.

George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

George,

I had no problem cutting from the above thread and pasting directly.

Failing that, go to the web-site for 'Jay-Cee Sales and Rivet Inc. and select 'Ribbed "L" Series Rivet Nuts'.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Gordon,

I went to the web-site and found the item. It looks like they have an interesting line of fasteners. Thank you very much for the information.

George Raham
G. L. Raham

I should have given Rob Grantham credit for mentioning the metal plates.

The factory original set-up is incepid and needed this mod.

Thanks Rob.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Ira,
Some great ideas on "door" improvements here! Having, just yesterday, had to re-adjust my doors again I will point you to one mod I did on my TF and have been very glad I did so.
http://www.ttalk.info/Sheward.htm
IMHO: "T" series cars do "flex" and I think the factory missed the boat "design wise" when they made the panels that covers our hinge adjustment such that you either "bend" the panel or have to remove all the hardware for hood and side curtains to get to it. (Mine were both bent and all the screw holes enlarged from being taken off too many times)
Izzys doors were perfect when we finished her years ago, however during engine re-build she sat on jack stands for a few months. On the way home my drivers door popped open, snapped the "stay" and "sprung" the hinge. Luckily I caught it before it made contact with the rear wing. This is such an easy mod, but I am so glad I made it.
Just one other thing I will mention here...again ,IMHO, if you have the original door stays use them! I had put "new repro" ones on (just being lazy and not wanting to clean my old ones). Looking closely at the broken one and comparing to "old school" ...I put the old ones back on. They are built much better!
Cheers,
David 55 TF1500 #7427
David Sheward

Best way to align the hinges is to knock out the pins and replace them on a temporary basis with a long rod, which should pass through both hinges. This will let you set them in perfect alignment.


Jan T
J Targosz

This thread was discussed between 21/05/2009 and 09/06/2009

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