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MG TD TF 1500 - Water Pumps

Hi, Ive just wandered across from the Y Type forum, hope you dont mind the trespass....

I have stupidly damaged my water pump pulley.....

Whilst perusing the web for a replacement I have read a number of items commenting on the poor quality and early failure of modern replacement pumps.

I bought mine from the Octagon CC many years ago whilst collecting parts awaiting the rebuild. It has never been put to the test as the rebuild has only just happened....

Has anyone any experience of failure of the Octagon or similar new items.

I have just read an article in TTT regarding a modern improved spec item available (at great cost) from Racemettle, seems good.

If I am going to replace the Octagon one - then now is the time rather than waiting for the car to be finished and then suffer a failure.

There also seems to be an issue regarding overtightening of the stiffnut on the pulley and thus accelerating failure?

The Racemettle item comes with pulley pre fitted.....do we think that there would be any difficulty fitting this item bearing in mind the 'clutter' already located around the bottom left nut?

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Rob
Rob King

Rob,

I purchased and installed a Racemettle pump on my TD last year and have no complaints.

Regards,
Jim
Jim Neel 53TD28423

Ah well

I purchased and installed a new Racemettel pump on my TD this year and did have problems. The pre drilled holes did not line up and needed reworking.

I did have complaints...when expressed .....I was told in not uncertain terms "tough luck"

You are right about the clutter around the nuts it is a real issue to fit.

Removing the rad is a pain but probably worth the effort to allow better access

Ray
Ray Coyte

I also got a Racemettle pump. It fit just fine. I didn't remove the radiator, it is certainly close quarters but not really terrible. I'm a bit of a hamfist, so if I can do it almost anybody can.
I've had mine in since the spring and no issues.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

I have also heard first hand about problems with Racemettle pumps, but I'm sure there are people out there who didn't have any problems with them,, (yet)

SPW
STEVE WINCZE



Bobby Galvez is right you can change the pump without removing the rad. Just like him I did just that. I found it fiddle though and frustrating.

Bolting on the fan was an exercise in fingertip feeling and immense patience.

The engine stabiliser was also no fun to fit (IMHO)

My point I think is that if ever I were to do it again I personally would take the rad off. Removing the bolts under the rad is also a non trivial task so you are pretty much stuffed either way.

Rob King has a Y and I confess I dont know if the access is the same as a TD.

Rob...if its just the pulley that is damaged I have my old pump with pulley attached - you are welcome to have it. I live near Stratford Upon Avon so I dont think we are far apart.

Ray
Ray Coyte

Steve, A comment like yours above begs specifics:

"I have also heard first hand about problems with Racemettle pumps, but I'm sure there are people out there who didn't have any problems with them,, (yet)"

Anything that you would care to share? As an owner of one I'm certainly curious. Thanks.

Ray, spot on with everything you say. Fan removal replacement was a chore - even more so in my case because the hex-head bolts were replaced with slot-head screws. Aligning the screwdriver with the slot after each quarter turn was a chore - and I also needed a driver with a 90 degree bend to fit in there.

Engine bracket requires the right combination of fitting and adjusting, luck, and swearing.

The entire thing was as much a test of patience as of skill.

Best,

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Just my humble opinion but I take the rad off when I do this. my fumble finger hands work better unencumbered. By the way, I and a few others in the club do not use the bottom nuts to hold the radiator down. It ain't going anywhere. headlights are bolted to it along with the two stabilizers and of course the hood is latched down also the hoses also hold it down.
Tom Maine

I will be installing a Racemettle waterpump on my TD this weekend- I will let you know it goes. I hope the mounting holes line up - I had not even considered that as a possible problem.
Jeff Delk

I will be installing a Racemettle waterpump on my TD this weekend- I will let you know it goes. I hope the mounting holes line up - I had not even considered that as a possible problem.
Jeff Delk

Jeff

If it is any comfort despite the line up problem I had I think still the pump is a good one and minor re drilling soon corrected the matter. Racemettle said they had been building them for years and have never had this issue.

The Racemettle pump is claimed to give twice the water pressure and volume of a standard pump

Because of this I also changed all my hoses for silicone. In retrospect I wish I hadn't as they were a lot of money and on my car were not needed.

A new water pump plus a heat shield plus a switchable backup facet fuel pump fixed this summers vapour lock problem on my car. It was only when I fitted the facet near the fuel tank that the problem completely vanished but this is a topic for another thread.

Good luck fitting the waterpump this weekend Jeff...the only other tip I would add is take the bonnet off for easier access. Get someone to help. Its at least a two man job otherwise you will end up doing what I did and stagger around the garage trying to hold on to half a ton of shiny wobbly sheet metal wondering where and how to put the wretched thing down without scratching it. I believe its a three man job, one to hold the left hand side, one to hold the right hand side and another to support the middle and shout at the other two.
Ray Coyte

Bobby,
One person (highly skilled mechanic/fabricator) installed a Racemettle pump on his "Y",, and then had it fail while on the trip to Vagas from the East Coast,,, when he discussed the problems with Racemettal,they wern't much help,,,,, Back when I was considering getting one, (2011),,,it was going to be $300 + shipped to my door... Also, at that time, racemettal told me that their pullys were a taper fit, and not "keyed",,,
Again,,, I'm sure there are a few out there who have had better luck with them,,,

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Thanks, Steve.

Not sure what there is to fail in a water pump other than it simply stopping spinning and not delivering water- bearing failure? Or did a seal give way and cause leakage?

My original was making a lot of noise from a bearing which it was about to finish chewing up. It worked but made a racket.

I asked about the Racemettele pulley and was told that it's a "press fit." It's on there snug enough that it shouldn't budge. The new pulley is aluminum, by the way.

It was about $ 300 delivered to my door - some $ 70-80 more than an equivalent replacement pump + pulley. I needed both, the keyway in my pulley got bodged when I removed it.

The price difference was worth it to me. I've read and seen that some of the Asian replacements need to have some grinding done on the flange in order to fit correctly around the timing chain cover. They also need to be have the impeller clearance set at the rear to the proper gap and then have the rear seal seated before operation.

The Racemettle pump needed none of that. It's a "drop in," at least inasmuch as any water pump is a "drop in."

If I should have any issues with the Racemettle pump I'll contribute. My exchange of emails with the owner prior to purchase gave me cause for confidence - the pump bodies are new castings, not old ones. He uses sealed bearings, as do all of the other replacements, and the seals are set from the factory - no need for the user to set them.

Fingers crossed.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

is it that expensive to not send your pumps to Butch T in CA and have him rebuild it. I know he fixes them for a lot less than what folks appear to pay for a Racemettle pump.
Tom Maine

Hi Tom. I did consider sending mine to Butch, he caries a solid reputation. The swinging factor in my case was that I still needed a new pulley and by the time all was said and done the extra for a new one seemed worth it.

I may yet send him my old one to rebuild.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Hi Folks,

I'm very grateful for your contributions...it all makes for very interesting reading.

As you will see from the picture below I dont have any issues with removal of the radiator etc....

....but I was concerned with fitting a pump with pre fitted pulley then struggling with access to the engine steady bar / water pump shared fixing.

Ray...you are indeed just 'down the road' if your water pump is for sale then I could get it rebuilt in Wolverhampton...perhaps you would email me.

Thanks again chaps

Rob


Rob King

Rob

You can have it at no cost ..just buy me a pint one day

It works fine but I just wanted a bit more volume of water going round the block.

My email is raycoyte at gmail dot com

I will ping you now

R
Ray Coyte

I'll definitely be redoing the water pump before next Spring's 4,000 miler. I'd like to have Butch do it, but I'm not keen on the idea of having Lazarus pulled apart for a month and a half. A dilemma. Bud
Bud Krueger

Strange but, the factory pump lasted for 30/40 years and did it's job! Why the big issue on replacing it with a high dollar special 6 vane pump? If the cores in the rad are clean and the water passages in the block are clean, along with the proper air flow through the cores, there is no reason to increase the flow of coolant the system was designed for. You can actually push the coolant too fast to get the proper cooling! JMHO. PJ
Paul sr

I was reading some period road tests that were conducted on the TD and was interested to see that one article stated that the TD was known for never overheating - and I believe this was a California-based test.

I am convinced that the overheating many experience today is due to:
1. Sediment buildup in the block cooling passages
2. Aftermarket grill slats that block off a great deal of air
3. Radiator cores that are blocked with buildup
4. In some cases, incorrect ignition timing

I purchased the Racemettle pump for the press-fit pulley arrangement - with hopes of avoiding the loose pulley problems that often occur with the original set up

I will send Butch a spare to convert to the taper-fit pulley/shaft arrangement. When you see that tiny pump shaft, the small woodruff key slot, and the large heavy pulley - you can see why they present a problem.

The lack of a taper-fit is a huge issue with the pulley - and I understand Butch resolves this in his rebuilds.
Jeff Delk

PJ

I follow your logic. In my case I had a vapour lock problem so a pump swap was one of three things I did to resolve it.

50 or 60 years ago my engine coolant probably flowed at the correct volume and pressure. My logic was that these days my particular engine might be a tad clogged and need a bit more flow.

As it turns out I probably could have avoided swapping out the water pump as a facet fuel pump was a major factor in solving the vapour lock.

Not sure a Racemettle pump is pushing coolant at such high volumes and pressures it is detrimental to surface heat transfer.

I could have played around with the formula

q=wCpÄt Where q = amount of heat absorbed by the coolant in BTU/hr, w = mass flow of coolantin lb/hr, Cp = specific heat of coolant in BTU/lb °F, Ät = temperature rise of the coolant in °F

But I thought no. Blow it. I will just put a bloody big pump on it and see if it solves things.

From this day forward I am claiming rights to a new MG forum term. "BBP" Bloodty Big Pump.
Ray Coyte

Update on my Racemettle pump:
It turns out that Steve Wimcze is a bit of a prophet when he says above that there are people who "haven't had a problem with them yet."
Last week mine failed as I was driving to our Fall Gathering of the Faithful.
Coolant was pouring out over the timing chain cover - it wasn't a leak, it was a flow.
After towing the car home and removing the pump it appears that the culprit is a failed rear seal - see photo. The flow was out of the weep hole on the underside of the pump body.
The photo is looking through the inlet pipe which is cast into the body of the water pump and what I believe to be the the break in the rear seal is visible.
I've sent email to Racemettle and am awaiting a reply - it was sent after close of business on Friday. I am sure that I'll hear from them in the course of Monday.
I'll keep the thread updated on my experience with this.
My pump was installed last November and has been run for probably less than 500 miles since then. It failed pretty abruptly - there was no leakage beforehand. I simply noticed that my temperature gauge was so far pat max that it was into the oil pressure part of the dial. When I pulled over to the side of the road a puddle of coolant developed very quickly.
Disappointed, but hoping for a favorable offer of remedy from Racemettele.

BobbyG



Bobby Galvez

A quick update on my Racemettle pump:

I had emailed them on Friday, it was after close of business for them in the UK. First thing Monday morning (today) I had a response from them.
Racemettle is offering to replace the pump and asking that I return this pump to them - they want to inspect it for cause of failure. I find that very reasonable, I'm as curious as they are to find what happened.
Response from them has been immediate and positive. I'll post more as events develop.

BobbyG
Bobby Galvez

Ray, yours is the first I have read of a TD having a vapor lock problem while running. I have driven my car in 34C temps in stop and go traffic ...mostly stopped for an hour and a half without issue. Exactly how much harsher conditions do you have in England? If the vapor lock occurs after a run with a short stop..as you know the water pump, no matter how efficient makes no difference in that situation. Thanks for your post regards, tom
tom peterson

Hi Tom

I never did have a vapour lock problem whilst running.

I had the common vapour lock issue where you switch off after a run and have to wait for the engine (carbs) to cool before she would fire again.

Use of the choke on a hot engine didn't solve it for me although I know it does for some

I merely made the point that swapping the pump was part of the things I tried to limit the problem. My logic being if the engine was running cooler when underway...it would then be a tad cooler when it was switched off. As it happens I think I wasted my money swapping the water pump

As I think I said earlier my vapour lock issue was solved by installing a heat shield and giving the carbs a bit more help by having a backup modern fuel pump.

I have a switch under the dash and on a hot day use the facet pump to start the car and switch back to the SU pump when underway.
It works for my car and don't have an issue anymore.

As to your point questioning if England has harsher / hotter conditions than Illinois in summer....I completely agree with you. We had a beautiful summer this year with temperatures in the high 20's it was quite delightful. Nothing like the heat you guys get at times.

Best wishes
Ray Coyte

Bobby,
I must admit that it is a very postive move for RM to replace the pump,,, Please keep us posted on the progress.

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

This thread was discussed between 02/10/2013 and 22/10/2013

MG TD TF 1500 index

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