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MG TD TF 1500 - What was painted

Started taking all the external stuff off my 1950 motor to clean it and get it ready for new paint.

My car has always had an unpainted oil pan, timing cover, bell housing and shift remote since I acquired it in 1973.

I have been scouring the factory pictures on Chris Coopers page on this web to see if I could tell what is or is not painted. Here is what I have been able to make out.

Chris lists all parts other than the remote shifter were painted.

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_heritage_pics.htm

From the first picture, it is clear the remote shift is not painted.

In picture 2, we see the issue. Can't tell in a black and white photo if that pan is painted or not.

In picture 7, you get a clear picture of the unpainted remote shift. If you expand the picture the color on the bell housing is the same as the back of the motor. Also, there is what appears to be a paint run in the middle of the bell housing.

In picture C037527 It looks like the timing cover is aluminum. There is good contrast between the cover and the timing mark. But, was the engine painted before or after testing? Did they put all the external parts on an unpainted motor?. But they may not have tested every motor and some were used just for testing and would not have been painted.

I also feel they would not have put the timing chain cover on after painting the motor.

In the last picture on the bottom, if you enlarge it, the timing cover does appear to be painted.

My conclusion from these photos, is that Chris's information is correct. The entire engine, bell housing and transmission were all painted. Most likely at the same time with the same paint.

The remote shifter must have been added after the unit was painted.

If this was done on all TD's or just later is also a question I cant answer.

Bill Chaser feels the paint on the aluminum parts does not stick as well as to the metal parts.
Bruce Cunha

I believe the paint was applied in one go, after all testing was done. So I would disregard C037527 for colours.


M Magilton

And black for the fan and red for the generator pulley (at least at the time of the assembly film you can see on British Pathe).


M Magilton

some more suggestions

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/imgytr/colours.shtml

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/mgtd_finishes.htm#engine
W_Mueller

Original fans may be black but bright red or yellow would be safer.

Jan T
J Targosz

"And black for the fan and red for the generator pulley (at least at the time of the assembly film you can see on British Pathe)".

Matthew, I know this has been thrashed out many times before but there is something that I've never understood in relation to the generator pulley. Everyone accepts that the generator itself was originally painted black. Surely the generator would have arrived on the assembly line ready to install, with it's pulley already fitted? It's a bolt on electrical component, just like the starter motor. This suggests that the body and pulley would have been painted the same colour surely? Why paint the body black and the pulley red? Just takes more time and two set ups in the paint shop. Time is money. This is one of the points that couldn't be disputed if colour film had been used for the Abingdon shots.

The other disputed item is the radiator branch pipe. I can see how this would be red however, as it would have been fitted on the line, from a big bin of branch pipes, unlike the generator pulley, because there is no reason that I can see to delay fitting the pulley to the generator until the car is on the line.

Having said that I have to concede that in the pic you've supplied there is clearly a difference between the black fan and the red engine, with the genny pulley certainly appearing to be red, the same colour as the engine and certainly NOT black. Perhaps this black and white pic does settle the debate once and for all? So I'll now be painting my pulley red. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

And that is the exact nature of the confusion. In the Y site Mr. Mueller listed it says:

Sump, timing chain cover, gearbox bell housing.

Natural aluminium (As it was on my early TD when I got it)

So was the engine on the test stand a TD or a Y engine? Seems they would not put the exhaust and intake manifold, carbs, Starter and generator on without painting the motor. They would have to take those off again for paint.

If the Y information is correct, I would think the early TDs were done as the Y. They may have changed this later to save cost and just painted the whole thing red?

I have been trying to think like peter. What makes the least amount of work?

It could be that the generator did not come with a pulley and it was added as the generator was put on.

Chris Cooper says the Oil filter bracket was black from the manufacturer and was added on to the engine. That makes sense. He also says the oil pipes were black. Again, if painted by the manufacturer, that would also make sense.

Does anyone know if British Motor Industry Heritage Trust or the MG museum have a question system where we can ask some of these questions? I have to believe there is more information out there that can assist us in determining what is or is not correct on our cars.

PS. I know this may not be of great importance to some, but how do you do an accurate restoration if you dont't know how it came from the factory?
Bruce Cunha

My "go-to" source for info about details on original mgtfs (and MGTDs) is the photo album of TF9052 on Chris Couper's site. The car has been driven less than 6000 miles. Practically everything on the car is as it left Abingdon. Frank Cronin took over 300 photos of the car.

See history of the car and photos here:
https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/Thumbnails/mgtf_tf9052.htm

Click on these photo numbers under "Engine Compartment Pictures" to see the pulley on the generator:
051
052
053
054
058
100

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

The pulley has a Morris part number, different to the Lucas numbers. Seems that the pulley was made by Nuffield/BMC to suit their engines. I believe that they put a sleeve over the generator before painting resulting in the pulley and sliding brackets receiving red paint in a rough fashion, which is what the surviving cars appear to show. It all came down to saving pennies.

Matthew.
M Magilton

Thanks Lonnie. The colour pics - albeit of a TF - do settle the argument for me. I'll also paint the genny adjustable bracket red as well. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

This car still represents a good sample of a early 1951 TD to me. Unfortunately I really did not take as many pictures as I should have and they are in slides. My digital transfer was poor at best. The car is still owned by the family who acquired it in the mid 70's.

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/UnRstr51/Thumbnails/mgtd_gallery_unrstrd51.htm
Christopher Couper

Well. Now I am confused. Images 3 and 4 of the 1951 TD clearly show the genny pulley painted black.

https://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtd/Pictures/UnRstr51/Thumbnails/mgtd_gallery_unrstrd51.htm

Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

The 51 Chris mentioned also appears to have the oil pan and the bell housing painted.

I put in a question to Doug Pelton at From The Frame Up as the late TC went to the Red used on the TD engine. This should give more information on if the timing cover, pan and bell housing on the late TC were painted or not.

While the information on the Y site says these were not painted, there is no validation that this is correct. I am thinking this may be correct and somewhere in the production process, they just assembled the engine and transmission at one station and painted the whole thing red.

Chris. I also noted the thermostat housing is black on the 51 you listed.

Given the valve cover is silver, this would mean they must have either had a separate valve cover that was put on for painting and then replaced with the silver cover.

Bruce Cunha

Peter. I note that this is not answered on the Y site either. They list the generator pulley as either red or black.

Could this also be a possible production change? Early TD's have a different pulley and fan than even the 51 in Chris's picture. Wonder if that was red and the later Black?

Issue I have in using the TF is we know there were production changes as the T series were produced. It does not clarify what is was on the early TD.



Bruce Cunha

The link that Lonnie posted shows some spray fog in pic 142. Belt, flange and fan show signs of spraying - not a strong evidence for me.
W_Mueller


"This car still represents a good sample of a early 1951 TD to me. Unfortunately I really did not take as many pictures as I should have and they are in slides. My digital transfer was poor at best. The car is still owned by the family who acquired it in the mid 70's."

Hello Chris, If you look at the back side of the fan blades (and other ancillary parts), it looks like the engine was touched-up at some point. Not sure it is really painted as it came from the factory.

Regards, Bill


WHT

"Well. Now I am confused. Images 3 and 4 of the 1951 TD clearly show the genny pulley painted black. "

Best I can tell is that if you have the cast fan it's definitely red. If you have the pressed one then either red or black seems acceptable.

Also keep in mind many of these items were sourced from different companies (especially sub assemblies) and I suspect their was not a lot of adherence to a standard.
Christopher Couper

W.Muller, did you mean pic 054? The poor paintwork you observe supports my idea they simply put a sleeve over the generator and 'threw' some paint over the engine. These were not meant for car shows.
M Magilton

Yes 54 and also 52. "142 of 339"is shown in the viewer.
W_Mueller

If you bought a generator it did not come with a pulley, which would differ from maker to maker, car to car. So my guess is that, as Matthew notes above, the pulley would be a BMC/Nuffield part, added to a generic Lucas generator.

I have a "virgin" 20,000-mile drivetrain, and the sump, timing cover and bell-housings are all painted.

Tom Lange
MGT Repair
t lange

Tom.

What year on that engine?

Just heard back from Doug Pelton at From the Frame Up.

He states that the TC's did not have the timing cover, pan or bell housing painted. This corresponds with what the Y group has.

While this is obviously not absolute proof, I think this fits in with other things we have seen. Early cars were more like the previous cars and were changed as production moved forward.

It is totally possible that in the early cars, the block was painted, the transmission was painted and the other parts were added on without paint.

Later, it would have been more cost effective to put the entire engine, bell housing, transmission together and then paint the whole thing.

I can't say for sure that TD 4139 did not have these parts painted at the factory, but when I got it in 1973, they were not painted and I have not found any evidence that they were ever painted. I have looked at every edge and not found any hint of red.

How about some of the earlier cars? Any others that are in the low numbers not have the timing cover, bell housing and oil pan painted?


Bruce Cunha

A factory photo showing the start of the TC assembly line. I think the chain cover and sump are probably painted (the fan blades here are likely red too).


M Magilton

Bruce misquoted what I had said in conversation. In clarification all aluminum was indeed painted sans the shifter remote. Since the engines were not primed with a high zinc primer prior to top coating the paint didn’t stick well to bare aluminum and would slough off over time and when heat, oils, gasoline, cleaning solvents and water pressure were used.

Though promotional pics may show pulleys as both black or red ocassional aluminum parts being bare metal etc, they are still promotional photos. These items may have been done as such to highlight certain items and make a pic more interesting to draw in the viewer. I have a dozen TD dynamos with early and late pulleys and all are black. In a production sense where increased time to mask off certain details or cap off engine internals to paint and then to add brightwork after the fact doesn’t make for good profitability.

I lean toward Peter’s remarks with the dynamo pulleys. Keep in mind that the dynamos and pulleys likely both came from Lucas and fully assembled Before teaching Abingdons assembly line floor. I may be wrong but I don’t believe these components were solely used by MG. They were used with other British Marques, lories, tractors, stationary and mobile industrial equipment etc. all having engine colors differing for each manufacturers visual palette. It doesn’t make sense that Lucas would change colors on regular product components.

To add to the discussion. In my inventory of unmolested transmission castings, they appear to have been completely immersed in gyptol prior to any machining operations. They were not painted engine color from my experience.

TD-4834 was built several weeks after Bruce’s car. The car was disassembled and had sat dormant since 1962. When purchased there were remnants of red paint on the timing cover, oil sump and bell housing, the pulley and fan blades were black. The thermostat housing was red.

W A Chasser

A few more pics of an early TD engine in "Safety Fast" from Nuffield and British Pathe. Video notes say that it was released in 1948 (?) Early slotted wheel TD.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KBKgw5Cvz8
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/safety-fast/query/safety+fast

Screen shots at 1:21, 1:27, 1:40

Painted:
Gearbox
Sump
Timing Cover
Generator pulley seems to be same color as engine (?)

> M Magilton: Do you have a link to the video in your post?

Lonnie
TF7211

Photo @ 1:21


LM Cook

Next photo at 1:27

Lonnie
TF7211


LM Cook

Final photo at 1:40. Note black water outlet.

Lonnie
TF7211


LM Cook

Lonnie, I don't have a link, I think its on the British Pathe website as MG Factory Abingdon 1950.

Here is another factory shot of a TC engine. Note the non-black pulley. They saved a couple of pennies this time by not painting the sump. I can see overspray around the sump.


M Magilton

Viewing the videos from British Pathe never gets old.

Seeing the still photos of a working assembly line that Lonnie posted is the best evidence in my opinion what was painted.

Frank

TF 1414

Frank Cronin

Good one Lonnie

First, Early on they talk about an MG in Germany. Did he say the car went 200+ in a 12 HP car? That has to be a mistake.

I will agree that the timing cover appears painted. I did not get a frame with a clear picture of the sump, but I did catch this picture of the bell housing at 133.

It appears clear that the bell housing was painted. That changes my mind back to all parts were painted.


Bruce Cunha

On the first two pictures Lonnie posted you could go either way with the generator fan color. :-)

Note the very distinct black thermostat IMHO.
Christopher Couper

I would agree on the thermostat. That does appear much darker than the engine.

I also note that the entire tappet cover, tube and the clamp that holds the tube to the cover appear red.

The oil line on the oil filter looks red. No different in color.

(darn it would be nice to have one color photo).
Bruce Cunha

I am going to throw out another item to discuss on this topic.

Bolts. Lonnie's picture of the engine also shows the bolts on the horn and radiator support appear to not be painted.

I know bolts were not painted on assembly, but appear to be painted prior to the car leaving the factory.

Chris and I have discussed this and somewhat jokingly (maybe not) said they had a guy with a can of paint and a brush that painted the nuts and bolts.

Here is a picture where you can clearly see the front bolts look unpainted.



Bruce Cunha

Here is a still from this video showing the car being loaded on a car hauler. I can't see the silver bolts in this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nt1rigJyLY

(2.05 in the video)
Bruce Cunha

Here is a picture


Bruce Cunha

"Here is a picture where you can clearly see the front bolts look unpainted."

Before that paint guy had a chance to do his job. :-)
Christopher Couper

Another puzzle, in this photo the head of the headlight support bolt against the radiator shell looks to be body colour, but in the footage where they are mounting the front guards on the black car, the same bolts look silver?


M Magilton

Could it just be the reflection that makes them look silver/chrome?
Christopher Couper

It might have been the “black-paint-brush” guy’s first day on the job. Looks like he painted the wheels black instead of the bolt heads! :)

Lonnie
TF7211
LM Cook

Interesting on the headlight support. From pictures, we know the grill was put on the car prior to the body being installed.

So this indicates that small parts such as headlight supports had to be painted in the paint shop. Would they have taken the time to paint the bolt body color?

It is possible these were included in the support and the paint shop just sprayed a batch of them, but from a cost and time perspective, it would have been easier and probably cheaper to use a chrome or nickle plated bolt.
Bruce Cunha

The bolt on the black car certainly looks like a bright finish (even clearer in the moving images).


M Magilton

It probably got hand painted after assembly. If they painted it before it would probably get all chipped forcing it into the hole and certainly when a wrench got put on it. This is also a place that has potential chipping problems when restoring as torquing down the bolt can also cause the paint on the support bracket to chip. All of this necessitates hand painting the bolt after assembly IMHO.

I went back and looked through all my old pictures. I found most cars that had either painted or unpainted bolts (worn off CAD or paint?), but at least two had chrome bolts. The two chrome where mixed in the time order so it's not like there was a production change.

BTW my car has chrome bolts but who knows when that might have happened. My car had all sorts of stuff chromed during the 60's.
Christopher Couper

On Photo No 032 Engine Compartment Details on The Original MGTF midget website of TF9052, it depicts the copper oil line from the block to the head as being painted. It looks like the setscrews and banjo brass end fittings were also painted.

It is interesting that I can see re paint on the Distributor Cap holder and also evidence of red paint droplets on the top of the Distributor Cap. Original ?

Noted also are that the setscrews (3) holding the side engine plate have evidence of being painted with red engine paint.


With the exception of the Distributor Cap, on both late TDs and in a general sense with TFs, originally were all the above painted?

Cheers
Rob Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Hi Rob,

If you look at TF8541 which is a survivor but has more miles on the clock you can see all those items were indeed painted. It may be not 100% covered with paint but there is enough evidence of paint chips I see that they were. Tough to see due to wear and dirt but the dynamo pulley is also red.

The clips to the distributor is most likely paint splatter. You see the same sloppiness from the "painter" on the Purolator oil can. Whoever paint "detailed" these cars in the engine bay you can see black paint marks on the red body paint when detailing the screws to fasten black clips and hardware. I see the same mistake when they painted the small straps to the temp gauge along the stay bar to the side of the bonnet and when painting the round head screw to the strap to the main wiring harness. I believe the same person with a shaky hand did both cars.

See pictures TF8541 - 112; 114;117

TF 9052 24; 52

It seems the factory paint did not hold up well to items that were yellow / white metals.

Frank

TF1414
Frank Cronin

Looking at the factory pictures sure brings up a number of questions.

Look at the spark plug wires. Those do not look black.

Also, the oil filter bracket looks to be red?



Bruce Cunha

Ok, one more oddity in the factory pictures

Look at the fuel overflow lines? Seems odd they would run it in front of the manifold. Front one looks very close to the manifold.

Any thoughts on this?


Bruce Cunha

Re the overflow pipe routing. Check out the driver's handbook sketches. This tallies with the route in the pic above. I've found many answers to questions of originality in these sketches. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Frank: "You see the same sloppiness from the "painter" on the Purolator oil can. Whoever paint "detailed" these cars in the engine bay you can see black paint marks on the red body paint when detailing the screws to fasten black clips and hardware. I see the same mistake when they painted the small straps to the temp gauge along the stay bar to the side of the bonnet and when painting the round head screw to the strap to the main wiring harness. I believe the same person with a shaky hand did both cars."

Be careful here. You are talking about my main man, the "paint brush guy". What a job. You just have to slop some paint on anything that is still unpainted before it leaves the shop so it won't rust in shipment. Probably the lowest job on the food chain at the factory, next to the "dustbin guy".
Christopher Couper

Peter. That's spooky. If you enlarge the picture, those pipes are nearly touching the manifold. Could be as this is not a finished car, they were moved farther away.
Bruce Cunha

Bruce do you have a Driver's Handbook? There are quite a few sketches showing part or all of the route of the overflow pipes. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I do have that Peter. have to dig it out
Bruce Cunha

This thread was discussed between 11/01/2019 and 23/01/2019

MG TD TF 1500 index

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