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MG TD TF 1500 - Woohoo! It started!

Big day at the Olson house today! I started up the newly rebuilt engine on TD23004. It last ran in 1983.

I was a little anxious about whether it would start ok, but there were not as many problems as I had feared. I put a couple of gallons of petrol in the tank, turned on the ignition and with just a little nudge the fuel pump started ticking and filled the carburetters. There were small fuel leaks only at the fittings where the banjos attach to the carbs, but a little film of Hylomar on the gaskets stopped them quickly. I cranked the pre-primed engine over for about 30 seconds without the spark plugs until oil came out of the holes in the rockers and there was oil pressure on the gauge, put the plugs in, turned on the ignition, pulled the starter cable and hoped for the best. After a few coughs and sputters it started and ran, but a bit roughly. My friend fiddled with the timing while I kept my foot on the gas to keep the RPMs at 2000 and then it ran well for 5 minutes or so when it started to stall and I shut it down. It started again in a few minutes but stalled again. I think it vapor-locked. I theorize that the newly rebuilt engine was running hotter than it should even though the water gauge was reading about 75C. What do you think? Are there other reasons it could have stalled? I plan to try it again tomorrow when it's thoroughly cooled down and hope that it will run for a longer period.

Looks like I'll live long enough to actually drive it again. This BBS has been a tremendous help. My thanks to all of you. I haven’t asked too many questions but I’ve spent hours in the archives where just about any topic has been covered more than completely. I think my wife may have been happier at times if I had taken up something more socially acceptable like gambling or drinking rather than rooting around in the archives, but I think it was time well spent. Today she was so excited that she ran out of the house to take a few pictures. Sorry, no videos.

Joe



Joe Olson

Congrats Joe! Big day for you. That is a major milestone crossed. I'll leave the trouble shooting for others who are much more qualified. I agree that the archives are an amazing resource. I hope you can put the remaining gremlins to rest and get your car back on the road soon.

Kirk
Kirk Trigg

Way to go Joe!
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

JOE,
most excellent !!!!!!!!
Vapor Lock??? IMHO, I doubt it,,5 minutes wouldn't be enought time to create vapor lock,,, What do the plugs look like after it stalled out the second time???
Plug condition tells an awfull lot !! What about the filters in the fuel line? And the one in the pump??

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Joe,
There are a few more details that would be helpful in trouble shooting the stalling out,,, Mainly, you didn't mention what else was done to the car since it last ran in 1983??? Carbs? Fuel tank cleaned? Fuel pump ? Fuel lines replaced?

SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Congratulations Joe - I know that must be a good feeling to crank it up - now the fun begins at a new level.

You mentioned using Hylomar on your fuel banjo fittings - I would advise against that - as all that is really needed are nice smooth surfaces on the sealing washers and a good tight pull on your wrench - go slow and tighten them up by feel and the leaks should stop.

If you have to keep your foot on the gas to keep it going, I would double check your jets and lower them a bit to get the car running without the need for the gas pedal. It seems you may need to double check your float levels (which will set the fuel level in the jets) and your idle speed adjustment screws (which will allow more air/fuel in to your intake).

Your dash sure looks nice!


Good luck!
DLD

If/when it stalls, take the lid off of the float bowls and check to see if there is fuel or not. If dry, obvious fuel supply problem. Remember many SU problems are actually ignition- coil/condenser get hot or bad rotor. No way vapor lock just idling in my opinion, that usually happens after shutdown on a hot day. Looks great! George
George Butz

Well done Joe - Great job - Another MG back on the road :)

You said that "with a little nudge the fuel pump started and filled the float chambers."
I would agree with George B and look in the float chambers to see if the pump got a little temperamental and stopped pumping fuel to them.

Rod

R D Jones

Thanks for your suggestions, tips, and words of encouragement. Things that I had to do got in the way of the things I wanted to do today so I wasn’t able to try to start the engine up again, but I did follow up on most of your suggestions. I'm sure you're right that vapor lock is not the problem.

The plugs all look the same and are a bit wet and are blacker than I would have expected after just a few minutes of run time, but then I’ve never pulled plugs out of a newly rebuilt engine like this before. The wetness makes me think that maybe I wasn’t getting ignition. The float bowls are full and the fuel screens are free of any particles.

The carbs and fuel pump have been overhauled. The fuel pump is working well after the initial wake-up nudge I gave to the new points. I’m sure the carbs will need to be better synchronized but I don’t think they are the issue right now. The fuel tank is clean. The flex fuel lines are new; the tank to pump line was cleaned out with acetone and carb cleaner. The dizzy was overhauled by Advanced Distributors.

I put gasket sealant on the banjos because I had already tightened them as much as I dared and they still oozed gas. The new washers are very hard fiber and not as smooth-surfaced as the old ones. The very thin film of Hylomar stopped the leaks without overtightening the banjos. Is the concern that some of the sealant might foul the carbs?

I discovered that the tach gearbox had wiggled itself loose and rotated down so the casing may have contacted or at least was very close to the low tension post of the distributor. Am I right in assuming that a short there would cause loss of spark? The symptoms of the stalling seemed to me to be consistent with either loss of spark or loss of fuel, but with the wet spark plugs I’m thinking loss of spark may have been the cause my problem. What do you think?

I kept my foot on the gas not to keep the engine going, but to keep the revs up to 2000rpm for proper break-in of the reground cam and lifters. As soon as the revs dropped below 2000 I immediately took my foot off and shut off the ignition. I agree that I’ll have to properly set the carbs soon after I get the cam broken in.

Tomorrow I hope to find the time to re-set the static timing, secure the tach gearbox to keep it away from the distributor lead, and try to start her up again. If you have any other suggestions I'd be glad to hear them.

Thanks again for all your help.

Joe
Joe Olson

Hi Joe. You've mentioned everything else except for the coil. Spark could be the problem. Maybe check the primary & secondary winding resistance? Cheers.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Joe,
>>>> The plugs all look the same and are a bit wet and are blacker than I would have expected after just a few minutes of run time, <<<<

IMHO, the wet, black plugs indicate a very rich mixture,, not necessarily a lack of spark,,this would be the same as running the engine with the choke on full,,, it would stall out is a relativly short period of time..

Hope this helps,
SPW
STEVE WINCZE

Loose tach drive very possible. I suggest removing the dizzy and correctly orienting. Make sure all of the plug/coil wires are tightly seated. Is the rotor a new red one? Condenser? Coil? George
George Butz

Joe, the fuel leakage problem might be a matter of having the wrong washers in the banjos. The washer that first goes onto the banjo bolt has to have a smaller i.d. than the one that goes on after the banjo. It has to fit inside of the machined out portion of the banjo. This smaller washer can be used in both places. Recent Moss carb-to-carb fuel lines are (IMHO) not made properly and do not have the machined out section in the outer portion of the banjo. Bud
Bud Krueger

My new Moss coil is ok and has spark. I think I fixed the tach drive wobble for now at least. I leaned out the carbs one flat. I haven't looked for the old washers to compare against the new ones, but the banjo leaks have been stopped-is there something else I should know about them and correct?

When I went to check the static timing, the distributor was binding and didn't want to rotate easily on its shaft. I checked with Jeff at Advanced Distributors and here's what he said: "I DO set the shaft clearance very tight on that distributor because the engines tends to pump oil up the shaft into the distributor. By adding a third shaft bushing where there previously wasn't one, there is a tight area on unworn shaft that needs to be polished out to rotate smoothly. If you want to send it back, I'll be happy to tear it down and make the clearance slightly larger and check through everything again." The dizzy is now on its way back to Minnesota so it's gonna be a while before I try to start the engine up again.

Joe
Joe Olson

JOE,
While you (we) are waiting for the dizzy to come back from Jeff,,, how about some pictures of the car??? Also, send a pic up to Gordon Lawson to be included in his Owners Picture Page..
http://gblandco.com/gb/forum/slides/aaaforum.html
STEVE WINCZE

Another thing to consider...

I too have an advanced distributor rebuild. When last starting the car after removing the distributor, I set it to static timing at TDC. It did indeed start, but it was rough and would stall quite easily. The advance that Jeff spec'd was 12-14 BTDC. After setting this correctly, the car ran very well.

Thus, you may want to get the car running with the static timing for start up, but make sure you have the idle set high. Then quickly use an advance timing light to set it within Jeff's advance specs. That should help with the stalling.

Alex
Alex Waugh

Jeff promptly sent the distributor back to me but I just got around to installing it. After making sure I had oil pressure and oil coming out of the rockers, the engine started right up and ran well for a few minutes and then stalled. My ace trouble-shooting skills finally determined that the fuel pump was working only intermittently (no doubt a result of my home rebuild). It would fill the float bowls and the engine would run until they were dry. After a few minutes checking and adjusting the pump, I ran the engine for half an hour at 2000-2500 rpm to seat the newly reground cam and lifters. I’m pleased with how well it ran. So far, there are no oil, water, or fuel leaks anywhere. Now on to putting the fenders/wings and hood/bonnet back on, buying new tires to replace the 1967 bias plies, and actually driving the car again. Thanks for all your help!

Joe
Joe Olson

Here's a picture of the engine compartment as it now looks except for the battery which I hadn't yet bought when I took the picture.


Joe Olson

... and here's a picture of the ar*e end of the car. It still has the original paint, chrome, and interior. It looks pretty good for its age, I think. It's got a lot fewer wrinkles than I do anyway. There were two holes in the bumper when I bought the car and I always assumed there had been reflectors mounted that had been removed by the PO. Chris Couper's website shows that 53's may have hade reflectors as did MK II's. The ones there now I bought from Moss.


Joe Olson

pretty cool! Congrats!
Rich King TD 8732

Congrats Joe!
Geoffrey M Baker

This thread was discussed between 18/03/2014 and 28/04/2014

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