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Triumph TR6 - Break In oil

Ok guys, I've searched the archives diligently looking for direction w/r to which oil to use on start up after overhaul. Guess the consensus is 30 Wgt Non-Detergent for the first 20 minutes or so to seat the rings and the new cam then drain, change the filter and refill with 20W50 or 10W30 AND add a few ounces of ZDDP to the crank case. My issue is that I'm not going to be "running the engine for some time but I think that I need to go ahead and spin up the oil pump and get a good coat of lubrication throughout the newly rebuilt engine. That being the case, should I use 30 wgt and continue with it through the first 20 minutes of actual run time then I get to that point? Also anyone care to advise what the crankcase capacity is with the oil filter conversion and a 13 row oil cooler with the stainless hoses? Also should ZDDP be added to the first iteration of lubricant, that is the 30 wgt start up stuff?

Thanks.
db
Doug Baker

Hi Doug

I would say go with the 30 weight no ZDDP for 20 minutes and drain it - replace with the oil you plan to go with (20W50 or 10W30 and ZDDP).Run it for 20 minutes and then leave it be. Put some oil in the combustion chambers if you are leaving it for a few months.

The 30 weight should flush out any metal filings etc left from your rebuilds.

I would guess the cooler adds about 1/2- 3/4 of a quart and the spin on is about the same as the original filter.
Michael Petryschuk

Michael,
Thanks much. Appreciate your thoughts. Sounds very reasonable.

If I just fill it with oil (30 wgt, I'd assume), spin up the oil pump to flush out the oil channels and leave it sitting for another few months, with maybe some oil squirted into each cylinder and turn the crank through a few rotations, think that'll keep it lubricated, clean and rust free or should I periodically rotate the crank etc.? I just want to make very sure that inattention does not cause a bunch of bad stuff to happen, like rusting up the bores or whatever.
db
Doug Baker

Michael
Sorry to disagree mate but ZDDP is at it most critical needed time during the run in of a flat tappet motor.

This is the entire BAD point of the removal of ZDDP from oil. Rebuilt engines (our flat tappet design especially) on run in where failing like crazy until it was determined that the LACK of ZDDP in the oil was causing this problem. Add ZDDP to the break in time and the failure rate dropped drastically back to a "pre removal of ZDDP" level.

The big issue of should we add ZDDP to our oil AFTER break-in is the question. ZDDP does its' main job to help break-in an engine. IMHO I think it is wise to keep adding ZDDP at oil changes only because our engines where designed and built at the times when ZDDP was part of an oil formulation. Keep in mind it was removed because engine design has changed and ZDDP is not good for catalitic converters.

Besides it cost less than $2.00 more per oil change.

Next issue.....LED SUBSTITUTE......:)


Rick


PS the above is not from personal experience. I have always said I am not an engine guy. This is all from the WWW and it comes from guys that ARE engine experts.
Rick Crawford

Rick,
Thanks for the clarification. I have a store of ZDDP purchased on sale last year so if/when my engine EVER gets to run a bit, I'm well fixed for a few thousand miles at least. Oil has REALLY increased in price since I purchased my last case!!
db
Doug Baker

Rick

I have to disagree.

I don't think the ZDDP will make one bit of difference for the 20 minutes of idle running for the purpose of cleaning our the debris from a rebuild then draining the oil and is effectively a waste of money.

Now the 500-1000 mile break in is a different story where the engine is actually working and the ZDDP in the oil is doing something.
Michael Petryschuk

Mike, I find it intersting you disagree. I am sure you remember a few years back when I did an indepth review of the subject and posted it here on the BBS. (see the archives). Like I said, I am not an engine expert but I know that that first 20 minutes is VERY important to the break in procedure of a rebuilt engine and that time is when ZDDP is doing its' job.

So all I did just now is GOOGLED "ZDDP IN OIL" and here is just a few.

http://bestdealsinmichigan.com/check-it-out/zddplus_engine_oil_additive.html

http://www.ttalk.info/Zddp.htm

http://macysgarage.com/myweb6/ZDDP.htm

So Doug you have 2 opinions...use it or do not use it. At MAX $2.00 cost to you, can you afford not to add it to that first 20 minute break in???
It sure will not do any harm.

Just trying to help
Rick
Rick Crawford

The people who built my cam for my Wedge will not warranty nutin if there is no ZDDP used on break in.
DON KELLY

To all

I guess it depends upon what you define as break in. I still believe it makes little difference for the 20 minute idle engine flush with oil but if you want to take the safe route add the ZDDP.

Michael Petryschuk

I stayed out of this as I thought Rick had it pretty much covered, but the first twenty minutes of a new cam and set of cam follower's life are the most important minutes that they will ever run. For my money, there's nothing to make a new cam happier on that first light off and break in period than some of that stinky old Crane Super Lube. Trust me, if you spill much of that stuff, you will discover a whole new level of "stinky" and it doesn't wash off that well. You just have to live with it until the smell goes away on its own (we had a case of the stuff fall off a shelf at the shop many years ago and two bottles were popped, it took about a month for the smell to go away).

Besides you don't run in a new cam in at idle, you need to up the ante and spin it at about 2000 rpm or so for that first run in.
SteveP1

Thanks Steve

I was hopping you might add your wisdom to this.
FYI to all, Crane Super Lube is an assembly lube and contains zinc (ZDDP) obviously used at break in.


Here is a very old article on the subject (I linked to this one in my posts back in I think 2007 or 2008). The only thing that has changed since 2006 is that now ALL and I mean ALL engine or deisel oils contain virtually no ZDDP.

http://forums.turbobricks.com/archive/index.php/t-84837.html

IMHO the least expensive ZDDP additive is from a GM dealership and is called EOS (Engine Oil Sustitute). Originally designed as an additive for engine break in. It is a 8OZ bottle but we only need to add 2OZ at oil change....we are only running the engine not breaking it in.
For the cost of a bottle of EOS (around $12.00), I would dump the whole thing in. After all it is an engine break in oil additive.
Rick
Rick Crawford

By the way guys. I keep pushing this GM EOS stuff so you will ALL buy it and use it. This way GM might not take it off the shelf and discontinue it.

Rick
Rick Crawford

Rick, Steve, Don, Michael, et.al. I'm NOT running in (YET). I'm just priming the pump so that I "wash" the innards and liberally lubricate everything since I'm not going to do my run in for several months yet. I don't want all the hard work I did on the engine rebuild to get all rusty and corroded. I figured to fill the crankcase with Non-Detergent SAE 30 weight oil, add some ZDDP for good measure, a bottle if considred necessary; short cut the oil cooler by bypassing the radiator with a short length of steel hose and pipe fittings on the oil filter; spin up the oil pump to get things well lubricated and then when I turn the crank through several revolutions to get back to #1 TDC, I'll not fear grinding cylinder walls or tappets resting on a dry cam. (Now of course, that won't happen 'cause I lubbed the hell out of everything with ARP assembly lube when I put it together, but a little extra insurance certainly won't hurt. When I get ready to start this hummer up I'll either leave this oil in it for break in or, depending on how much I spill with hooking up the oil cooler, drain and refill with the like stuff. Then as Steve recommends, run up to about 2K RPM for the first 20 minutes or so and then drain and fill with probably 20W50 Castrol AND ZDDP.

Steve, your Crane Super Lube sounds pretty good. Where do I find it? Thanks all.
db
Doug Baker

my engine is about 8+ years old and never been run. No oil in it either
DON KELLY

You can mail order it from places like Jegs or Summit but odds are that somebody local to you that sells performance parts carries it as well. I got hooked on that stuff in the early seventies thanks to a guy named Murray (I've known Harvey Crane since he was grinding cams by hand) Oxman when I worked/raced for him at AEECO-Motion Sports in Dallas TX. After that it was back to the world of dealerships.

One day Murray decided that he didn't want to play with race cars/race bikes anymore, sold out his half of the business to a partner and went for a PhD in psychology. Last I heard (from about six years ago or so) he was doing the "some sort of guru type thing" out in Arizona.
SteveP1

Doug, Are you familiar with

R & R Speed & Machine Shop
1221 Meridian St. N.
Huntsville, AL 35801
USA

Also check your auto stores for Penn Racing Oil. Don't need to add the "Z" stuff.
DON KELLY

Don,
Thanks. I deal with R&R on ocassion, but they're way too expensive for just ole ordinary folks like me. They're heavy into racing and building high end high performance machines. Great quality, but pricy. Thanks for the recommendation for Penn Racing oil. I'll look for it. Was not on the shelf at Autozone, my usual first choice, mainly 'cause they're nearby, just down the street.
db
Doug Baker

Don, checked out the Penn Racing Oil. Couple of questions. Do they have a 30 weight? If not 30 wgt, N-D; which viscosity do you recommend for break in; for subsequenst operation? Will you EVER need to add ZDDP at or beween oil fills? Thanks.
db
Doug Baker

Valvoline VR1 has ZDDP in it also.
JT White

Val. does not have full ZDDP.
But after break in it prolly has enough.

Penn does a great break in 30 weight. I didn't use it on the Wedge but many swear by it.
I use Penn 20-50 as a normal oil and it has all the ZDDP ya need in it.
DON KELLY

Here's a good read on oils. I run Castrol 20/50 with additive.


http://www.ls1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74825
JT White

This thread was discussed between 04/10/2010 and 13/10/2010

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