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Triumph TR6 - Clutch Problem...help
|V Dahl, Washington, USA, firstname.lastname@example.org |
Have a 74 TR6. About 2,000 miles ago I replaced the clutch, pressure plate, disk, throw out bearing and rebuilt the master and slave cyl. Everything worked well until recently. First I couldn't put the car into reverse without grinding and the clutch was right on the floor then it started happening in first. Finally had to put in gear before starting car and was getting creap.
Figured the hydraulics was the problem even though I was getting over 5/8 inch travel on the clutch arm. Rebuilt the hydraulics and added an adjustable push rod, again getting over 5/8 inch travel but now the clutch won't disengage at all.
Reading some threads it sounded like I probably lost the Pin that holds th release fork. I pulled the transmission only to find the pin is just fine and the fork is just fine. Inspecting the pressure plate, disk and throw out bearing everything looks just fine and nothing was loose.
I am at wits end. Don't want to just start replacing parts but don't want to put the transmission back in the car without finding and fixing the problem.
Anyone have any thoughts
|I just went through the same thing....it was the thrust washers. Go out and make sure the harmonic balance/pulley behind the fan is pushed in (engine off use a board as leverage or your hands)then with engine still off have someone push all the way in on the clutch and watch to see if the HB/pulley moves forward. If it moves forward more then just a very slight bit (about as thick as ones finger nail) then you need to drop the oil pan and check to see if your thrust washers are lying in it and if not pull the #4 main cap (furthest rearward) and take out the TW's and inspect them. When the rear TW wears or falls out it allows forward travel of the crank when pushing in the clutch and will cause it to grind going into reverse and "creep" in reverse and makes it difficult to go into first and "creep". I really figured it was my clutch and did some serious damage to my block and bearing journal trying to resolve my "clutch" issue.|
|Sorry, just notice you have the tranny out...pull the oil pan (takes ten minuets) check the fwd/aft play. Your problem is EXACTLY what my 74 was doing and I chased a clutch problem till I checked and realized it was the TW's.|
|Did you reinforce the pin when you did the clutch?|
|JT, thanks for the heads up on the TW, will take a look at it as soon as possible. |
Don, the pin was not reinforced but again that wasn't the problem. Reading lots of things it is suggested you drill a hold through the release fork and shaft and put a bolt in to further support the pin.
Guys.... how many suggest I do that since I have th transmission out anyhow?
|Have you double checked it. Most of the time it looks right and when you go to remove it ,it's in 2 pieces|
I'd do the TW next
|Ok, I think I might be having the same problem. Drove my 74 all weekend without a problem. Then this morning(tues) With the motor running, I couldnt get the car in gear, but when I have the car off, it went into gear without a problem. So once I started the car in 1st, I could do into 2nd or 3rd, but could not down shift, and it would get locked in the N position. Does this sound like the same thing to you guys? thanks|
|Conclusion, don't buy a 74 ;}|
|Thrust Washers! Mine wouldn't go into first smoothly and would "creep" at times in first or reverse...got worse on the going into first but would go into all gears smoothly with engine off....have someone push the clutch in with the engine off and look at the damper pully...if it moves fwd drop the pan and check the TW's...ASAP (ask me how I know)|
Highly recomment you go to this WEB site.
Triumph Solid Alloy Thrust Washer :: TR5 TR250 TR6 Spitfire ...
I put Scott's washers in mine way back in 2000 and have had no problems.
You can do severe damage to the engine if you do not address the thrust washers......MAN talk about bring up a subject from a long time ago!!
Oh ya, Will not do any harm in drilling the pin. I was told by my supplier back in 2000 that the new pin was of a higher quality and did not require the drilling...I did not drill it back then and have had no problems.
I was given a suggestion (did do this) to double up on the bearings at either end of the cross shaft where it goes into the bell housing. Both sides only have one bearing there and there is room for 2 per side.
And before you ask the question, use the middle hole.
|Ok so since I already have the transmission and clutch out of the car I went ahead and dropped the oil pan....no TW there. Pulled the rear main cap and both thrust washers are in place and don't show any real wear so that's not the problem. |
Before I start putting the car back together, any other thoughts??
|Did you check the crank end play...fore/aft movement.|
|I will add the same|
Did you check the crank end play...fore/aft movement?
This is the ONLY way to tell if your T washers are OK or not.
I think it is only about 4 thou and you have a problem....this is not visually detectable.
Read this letter from Scott.
I used the "Dial gage mounted on magnetic stand" method mentioned at the end of the letter. Much more accurated and kinda necessary anyway if you want to order the correct size. I bought both front and back but oversized the rear one.
OR Google "Scott Helm thrust washers" and see what vyou get.
|Put a dial gauge on it. Only way to tell.|
|Since I still have the transmission out of the car can not check the crank end play however since the thrust washers look OK and were in place if they are worn to even to .020 I can't imagine that small of movement would result in no clutch at all?|
Understand the concept of the crank moving forward and not letting the clutch fully disengage but would think I would need far more than "slight" wear on the TW.
Appreciate your thoughts!!!
|Standard end play if I'm not mistaken is .002 to .006 .020 would be WAY too much...the TW's should have a copper face on them where they meet the crank surface (and where the oil grooves are cut). If the copper is gone the TW's need to be replaced. Put a large flat screwdriver or pry bar between the crank and a journal and see if it has fore/aft travel...if you have travel you can notice visually then it's too much. Check end float and the TW's facing material before buttoning it up.|
first off...having the tranny out is the perfect time to check end play using a magnetic base dial indicator.
Second..you obviously did not read what I suggested you to do. SOOOOO I quote a little tid bit from it:
"If your end-float reading is .020", and you would like to have .005" after you install your new thrust washer, then you'll want to order a thrust washer that is .015" thicker than the one that's currently in your car (rear TW - as in toward rear of car). In most cases, the front thrust washer won't need to be replaced, but should be inspected. The end-float is adjusted by changing the width of the rear thrust washer only. The front thrust washer remains the same thickness to assure the crankshaft remains in the same position in relation to the other moving components."
Regardless if you think this amount of play (.020") will have no bearing (excuse the pun here:) on no clutch, you still need to replace them to save your engine from blowing up.
Finally, I think it is fair enough to say You have been warned!
|Rick's a little testy today!|
|Rick, Hear you loud and clear and will absolutely check the end float and replace the TW as appropriate. What I was saying was since the TW was in place obviously the end float wasn't enough to cause the clutch problem. |
So before I button it back up I am searching for other reasons for the clutch problem.....any ideas?
Hope you took me as just trying to be helpfull. I am sure you did. Was comming on a little strong but wanted to make my point as this is important.
Any Ideas..... JT says he had the exact problem and replacing the TWs solved his problem.
I know where you are comming from....putting the tranny back in is not an easy task just to find out it still does not work. BUT as JT said it solved his problem. I know there is not a lot of movement to have clutch or no clutch.
I remember one other possibility. I heard a story about the red flex line being old and expanding as clutch depressed and thus the fluid not going to the slave.
This happened to me and it took me a while to find it. My red flex line was actually spinning on one of the factory ends and air was getting in...no clutch was the result. I put a small hose clamp on it an Bob's your uncle.
|No problem....appreciate all the help and ideas. Yes I read about the red flex line as well but before I started pulling the transmissioin I rebuilt my master, slave added an adjustable push rod and replaced the red flex line....getting > 5/8" travel but clutch actually got worse.|
I am going to replace the TW (after I measure) just because I have it open and the rear TW has the bronze worn off but struggling to figure out what else it could be.
|Buy the bronze alloy from scott. He is a great person to deal with...makes a heck of a good product and at $20 including shipping you can't go wrong. Oder a standard front one (about $6 a set from any supplier) then use the bronze alloy for the rear from scott. He stocks sizes from .92 (std) up to .030 over .122. |
This thread was discussed between 06/09/2010 and 10/09/2010
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