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Triumph TR6 - Concours Q's
|I know, I'm asking too many questions on the BBS. But I need to learn from you experienced 6 owners and will help others eventually. Pls excuse my knowledge greed.|
If a seller has changed the colour of a TR6 from its original red to TR6 French Blue does that detract from the value of the car? Would concours judges say deduct for this? Assume that the restoration is body off with all metal back to bare... no red showing.
Also, if a person adds overdrive to a car that did not originally come with overdrive is that change a technical no-no? It sure adds value in my way of thinking. Ken
These are sort of broad questions which can give mostly opinions.
In my opinion, if you're going concours they will most likely know..they might look at your number plate for instance. Or look up under the dash and see a different color. Usually concours is restorations that bring a car back to what it was originally and how it came from the factory...although usually better.
On the other hand, if you're not going concours and it's a great job and you can find no hint of the other color then who cares?!
The bigger values in these cars are the real original ones with original paint, interior, low mileage etc..
Once you get out of that the prices seem to be all over the place.
If not concours then, yes adding overdrive will increase the value or attraction.
Unfortunately the values of our TR6's aren't experiencing a steep rise like many other classics. It seems like the values have stayed a little flat.
Well that's my opinion. Any others?
|HP Henry Patterson|
|Thx Henry... I read you.|
I have no intent to compete at the Concours level nor show it in major events that way. I want to drive this LBC and have fun but indeed with all due respect to the work done to bring a great car back to life. The term came up when the restorationist was describing the quality of his work and I wanted to understand the technical implications of the term. Ken
If you say to the fellow restoring your TR that you want it to be concours quality then get the BIGGER cheque book out! Concours is like saying I want to go back in time and buy my TR6 new. The only difference is back then you would write the cheque for about $3500 now it will be $25,000.
You do not want concours quality if you want a good presentable driver.
QUOTE "If a seller has changed the colour of a TR6 from its original red to TR6 French Blue does that detract from the value of the car?"
IMHO yes it does. You ARE talking about an antique car. Changing the colour is a BIG change from originality.....especially if not done correctly and you see it in door jams, under the boot or bonnett etc. It is a big deduction for a concours judge also. BUT this is a mute point. If you like the new colour and can live with any "seeing" (or not seeing) of the colour change then go for it.
Ken keep in mind any TR6 can be painted to look nice. The most important thing to look at is: is the frame and body solid? Is the paint job hiding something?
Finally adding an OD. MAN, yes this is good!
|Man I love this BBS and the great guys who are willing to help a newbie. |
Thanks to Rick, Henry, and Pete in other threads.
The restorer checked a "concours judges guide" and found that the only comment on paint was that it could not have orange peel. He made the assumption that original colour was not mentioned because it is understood to be a given. He does not know if that excluded an alternate factory original color. As you say Rick, it's neither here nor there since this owner has no intent to trailer the car from show to show and pretend I'm having fun.
Re persuit of Concours... gosh, there's no request from moi for a concours car. I want a beautiful driver that I can hug before I go to bed, tinker with, etc. and improve over time. It seems though that total body & frame restoration is necessary at some point in time with all LBCs. In this car's case it's happening now and the term concours has been used to decribe the quality of the workmanship in progress. If I buy the one of which I speak I will pay a premium but not an outrageous sum I don't think... $21,000. Reasonable for a totally rebuilt car with overdrive?
Are we talking a body off restoration here Ken?...just want to be clear on this point. It sounds like the answer is yes...full body off restore.
Consider I completed my body off restoration in 2001. I did all the work except soda blast and painting. My TOTAL investment was around $15,000. If I was to try to add my labour into the picture I would be over $20,000. The cost of replacement parts has gone up.
SOOOO, $21,000 is not bad.
Sounds like a good one to me.
|Hi Rick. Yep, total body and frame resto using various types of blasting where appropriate followed by repair, epoxy primer, and wet on wet application of German Standox paint. Every nut and bolt, catch, clip, etc. has been cleaned and cad plated too. All mechanics rebuilt by a reputable mechanic / rebuilder & new interior. The list is lengthy. I think it could turn out to be a great car. I don't have all the facts yet but soon. When I know more and the deal is done I'll bring you up to date. Of course, I could be sleeping in the garage by then too if you know what I mean.|
|It depends on the concours rules and the judges. For example, my TR3A left the factory with orange peel so I am not docked points for this after my total body-off restoration from 1987 to 1990. In fact, the rule "as it left the factory" is not true. I cannot say for the TR6s, but all TR3As that sailed from England had the front bumper wrapped in oiled paper (lying in the passenger footwell) and a 2 by 8 inch plank of wood about 4 or 5 feet long was attached where the front bumper was later put on by the dealer. There were a lot of Triumph dealers with beautiful wharfs up at the lake made from these "bumpers". My dealer put in the "dealer option" called a windscreen washer. It never left the factory |
If you like a certain colour and you replace the original with another colour which was available at the time, I know that VTR or TRA judges in the USA would not take off points. Go for what you like. After all, it's your car.
I lose points because I have stainless bolts and nuts where they should be painted (as originally), but I like them that way. I accept that I will lose these points, so what ? The same goes for your cad/zinc nuts and bolts if they were painted originally.
Don Elliott, Original Owner, 1958 TR3A
|Thanks for your input Don. Love the wharf story. BTW, I'd like to own all those cars in the slide show but am too long on body and too short on $$$. I went to BCD thinking I'd be into a TR3 by the end of the day but not to be. My height is great for watching parades though and I reach stuff on high shelves for old ladies in the grocery store.|
|During the TTC Canadian Classic concours show in Collingwood, the owner of a red TR4A asked me to sit in his car and push on the clutch pedal because it made a clicking sound. Getting into the TR4A, I couldnt get my right leg under the steering wheel, his cushion must have been too firm and too high. Then after I sorted out the painful cramp in my leg and tried again, I bashed my right knee on the bottom edge of the dashboard just below where you insert the key. And I'm only 5 foot 10 and weigh 175 pounds.|
I have loads more space in my TR3A.
|Don... your TR3a is beautiful. Someday when I grow up I have to learn how to create sites with pics of the car I don't own yet and also learn how to give people hot links to stuff. Currently I can pass along site addresses but you gottaste them into the address bar.|
I sat in Reg Parent's TR3 at BCD, which I think he said he had owned for 34 years, and struggled a little with legroom but I could at least flop my right leg onto the tranny hump which I can't do in the TR6. If the 6 I hope to buy fails to work I'll be 3 hunting 'cause I love 'em too. As one guy said to me... I'm too tall for LBCs and too short for the NBA. Too old too.
|At your point in the process you can easily go down two very different paths, so lets take a look at them.|
Path 1, "the Concours Path"
Having judged at several VTR (Vintage Triumph Register) events, the key is, as Don said, not as it it left the factory but what would be correct and period in the way of the car and dealer installed accessories. If it was "as it left the factory," than a radio or an air conditoner on a TR6 would cost you points. On the other hand, unless it is a pre-emmission era car, visible engine performance enhancements would cost you points, Miata seats would cost you points, having the Wilton wool carpets in a late TR6 will cost you points, even one of those very nice Sunfast canvas tops would cost you points. The key is that they are not really right for the car in a concours event. Color changes when well done will typically not cost you points, nor will "over restoration." However, those things are often used as tie breakers. I don't think there was ever a TR6 that left the factory without orqange peel, so that 14 coats and color sanded finish that looks a foot thick can work against you even though it does not necessarly cost you points. All it means is that the judges will look deeper in another area to find that point to take off. If you go this route, get hold of a copy of the VTR concour judging rules to use a guide while the work is being done.
Path B, "the It's my car and I did this because this is the way I want it path"
Many years ago, I was taken to task by a late TR6 owner in the VTR "Preservation Class" for docking him 10 points for the wrong carpet. He had the nice Wilton wool carpet as used on the early TR6s instead of the nylon loop carpet that it should have had. That was the way the rules worked at the time, you deducted the full range of points for having the wrong material. That was later changed to a subset of the points for any particular judging category. Now I personally don't blame the guy for having those carpets as I think they are much nicer, but he should have known the rules and not started raising hell with the judge when he was caught out. If it had been my car, I would have done the same as far as the carpet goes but would have had the good sense to know that there was a price to pay for making certain changes. You just have to remember that if you plan on entering a concours event, that this approach will cost you some points. This path allows you do stuff. Want that Sunfast top? Go ahead, I know I did, so it will cost me points, big deal. What about that alloy rocker cover with the red wrinkle paint and the polished ribs? Sure, why not, same response? A hot rod motor that uses triple DCOEs or fuel injuction, you bet, let's do it. You get the idea.
The bottom line is it is your car and you should do it up in a manner that pleases you. I hate to see people get into the "it needs to be a 400 point car" vs. the "I wnat something different" arguement. So think about the path you wish to take and proceed....
Excellent descriptions Steve. I learned something new... at least for the TR6 concours. Since I'm not concours material (thankfully)I can only go by what I've heard. Around here they have a couple of "high brow" concors d'eleagance (sp?)with very high dollar cars. Iv'e heard from people in that venue that a color change is not good. I guess not all concours are the same.
I think most of us fit your second category since that can be virtually anything outside of concours. Mine for instance is restored back to "factory look".
I kept the original color but I changed the interior from chestnut to black (PO had already done that actually). I changed the dash to a highly figured walnut. The original dashes were walnut but not as nice as mine. I re-chromed the original dealer installed luggage rack. I have a BL radio. I left the Michelin red line tires on (kinda harsh). That's because it's the way I wanted it to be. I took third place, out of 15 cars in my class, in a local British sports car show. It was definately not concours but I was told I was deduted points for my alloy valve cover. So what!! I like the way it looks and I kept it on even for the following event.
Just my story.
|HP Henry Patterson|
|Listen: I know a woman who bought her TR6 new in 1976, it now has about 30,000 miles on it. This is the car we all refer to if we want to know what is correct. Imagine my surprise when I looked under the dash and found NO interior lights, not even a harness for them! I guess that day in the factory they ran out of interior light stuff so her car didn't get any.|
When I took apart my tranny to fix a leak I found a broken tooth on the input shaft. I found 4 input shafts locally but none of them fit. They each had a different bevel and tooth profile. I ended up having to buy a matched input shaft/constant gear pair.
My point is that with hand built British cars determining what is right for your can be difficult or impossible. I like to drive my car so its restoration reflects that. If your rebuild shop is telling you "concours quality" I personally find this so nebulous as to be almost meaningless. If you want to know what you're going to get look at some completed cars and if they meet or exceed YOUR standard then go for it.
|Steve, HP, Don and the gang... What I like about this thread is the candid postings on a topic than could have gone snob. Man I'm glad I asked 'cause I'm feeling much better about how my car will be accepted within the LBC world, how I can tweak / improve the car without concern and just how much relaxed fun this experience will be next year when my other sweetheart to be comes back to life. Ken|
|Speaking of factory parts missing..a friend who also has owned his '76 since new noticed it was missing the British Leyland badge on one of his fenders straight from the factory....he still hasn't replaced it.."that's the way I got it' he says !|
|Speaking of what's factory and what's not... I am looking at a 76 that comes with its original hardtop as well as soft top, boot, and tonneau. I can't imagine using it but is it a correct TR part and a valuable asset to the car's overall value? What color should it be... same as the body? Thanks in advance for any helpful postings. Ken.|
|During 16 summers, I had the soft-top up for about 4,000 miles. The rest of the time (90,000 miles) it was "top-down" driving. I don't drive the TR3A in the winter.|
When will you need a hard-top ?
On the other hand, people pay big money for the factory hard top. They're hard to come by.
So Ken... I don't know if it will increase the cars value. It might if it is of course the factory top and is the same color as the car.
The top alone is valuable. If you're never going to use it then sell it on ebay and use the cash for something else.
|HP Henry Patterson|
|Right on Henry. Selling the top for cash is good. You never know... could pay for my Miata seat mod or a luggage rack, neat wheels, or or or...|
Thanks for the feedback HP. My suspicion was that it had value and that I should not discard it despite it being included in the price I'm willing to pay for the car.
I have a luggage rack you can have. IMHO, the car looks better with-out one.
|Will keep that in mind Rick... both your HO and the offer. I need to get out more.|
Sat the rack on the back of my car and 9 out of 10 persons asked said it look better without the rack...I agreed.
|Assuming we are talking about one of the factory hard tops, the hard top should be same as the body color on late cars. On early cars, most were body color, but some were white or black. Keep the top if it is a factory top, you'll be glad you did in the long run.|
Now having said all of that, now for concours answer. A hard top does nothing to add to your score in VTR concours judging and can actually hurt you. If it is not there, there is nothing to cause any deduction in points. If it is there, then it can results in points being deducted as warranted. Bottom line, keep the hard top, but unless it is pristine keep it out of the judging.
Compare the hardtop to the one shown on this parts list from Rimmer Bros, if it matches this, it is a factory top. They were designed by Karmann when they did the TR6 body styling and the squared off looks of the top really work well with the car.
I concur with Rick concerning the luggage rack, the cars look better in my mind without them. Mine came with one and I wound up pulling it off and having the holes welded closed and refinishing the boot lid.
You just reminded me of how I rechromed my luggage rack (not cheap) and then repainted the car (great paint job..not cheap)and then realized later that I would like the looks of it better without the rack. Not much choice now but to leave it. Some winter when I have too much money I'll remove it and take my deck lid to the painter. After I close the holes I guess. I suppose I could do as Red Green would and duct tape the holes for now.
|HP Henry Patterson|
My car also has a luggage rack and I am thinking about putting 1/4 turn recepticles into the holes (like Dzus fasteners) so I can remove the rack to wax the boot. If I want to keep the rack off, I can make small plastic covers that can be placed over the recepticles.
Another place you have a copy of what the OE hardtop looked like is on the CD
Go to:information sheets/cool extra stuff/supply catalogues/trf volII. Open the file TRFTR6VIIsinglewindow.html and then scroll down to GP Hard Top.
FYI every once in a while you will see some one on the BBS ask a question about Example: "TRF VOLII Plate GP39...is this part still available?"
The Roadster Factory (TRF), a US parts supplier, has published 2 Volumes for the TR6. One (VOLI) is still in print and available from TRF while VOLII is out of print but as you see it is on the CD.
You might say this is our books that show original parts. I refer to them as the first and second testaments.
I would keep the hard top if from Factory and OE to the car.
|Thx again Rick. Just found some good color pics of the factory hardtop in William Krause's book Triumph Sports Cars - Enthusiast Color Series.|
|I got a second boot lid this summer and would very much like to put a luggage rack on it. If anyone has a good spare for reasonable I'll take it.|
This thread was discussed between 28/09/2006 and 10/10/2006
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