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Triumph TR6 - Door gaps
|Who doesn't have gaps right? My driver door is sagging just enough that the latch doesn't align quite right. Two bits of advice I've been give:|
1) Have the frame check by a body shop with a frame straightening machine. They can possible do some repairs, welding etc.
2) Have a body shop familiar with TR6's assess and replace/adjust the plastic/metal shims that the body floats on.
The car is '76 TR6 and it was very recently certified and my mechanic (JD Motors) said the frame looked very good.
Good advice/bad advice?
|Sagging doors could be a function of worn out pins in the hinges and replacement ones are not that expensive or they could be mis-aligned hinges and striker plates. You will find that the gaps are never consistant side to side...a function of 'quality is job-1' attitude by the blokes at BL...NOT! (these cars do not have German or Japanese levels of fit and finish). My '75 has gaps of 3/8"+ on the passenger side and less than 3/16" on the driver side. I am the second owner and the car was neither hit nor restored, it was just the way it came from the factory. |
Unfortunately it is similar to Don Elliott's experience with judging cars and his windshield sprayer episode. Sometimes we are docked points eventhough it was initially made that way and restoring a car it is expected to be even better than how it was initially made. We can drive ourselves crazy making it better than new perfection. As a sidebar take a look at older Ferarri's or Lambo's (late '70's to 1990) the quality of the fit and finish would never be passed by quality control at Toyota. Worst offender are the Lambo Countach...the interior looks like it was made by a high school shop class.
Make sure the car is sitting on its wheels when you assess the doors. Up on blocks or stands makes a difference. Did you notice this when you bought the car?
Lift the door almost closed up and down from the latch end to feel for play in hinges pins. The drivers door gets much more wear.
Take a measurement at same points top and bottom of both sides door openings. Are they the close to same. Look at your gaps front back bottom. You want to know if the body is out of whack or the door is angled in the opening.
Likely just pins. Or the PO didn't get the hinge bolts tight at some point. Depending on whats wrong you shouldn't need a body shop?
Let me know
|All of the above is true. Just want to add that my doors never fit when jacked, but on the road wheels, are perfect.|
Is this how they were designed? Peter G
|Made the mistake of putting the car on stands with the doors open and then went to close them and "thunk". No close!10 months later still on stands and doors still open.|
"and my mechanic (JD Motors) said the frame looked very good". Could mean..."yup no rust". Even the best mechanic would have to physically measure a frame for allignment.
Both the door and B post door latch sets are adjustable. It could be that simple. Does the door have a "widening" gap as you go from top to bottom of the door? All the posters to this thread have given plenty of advice for you to do it yourself. Do not bother taking it to a shop. I will admit, adjusting the hinges is a little more tricky and is kinda trial and error. Another thought is to loosen off the body mounting points on that side of the car and with a jack lift the body (not the frame) up slightly to see if the door aligns...maybe you simply need another "rubber pad" in one of the mounting points. The point of addition of a pad would be the either of the 2 mounting points at the rocker pannel ( under the door).
If the stands are placed on the frame as close to the wheels as possible then the doors will work the same as if the car is on the floor..this I discovered after staring at the car wondering why my door would not close ! Still on stands after 3 months and doors work fine.
First of all, thanks to everyone.
The door gap does widen bottom to top and the gap is very similar to Steve's car.
I took another look at the hinge, and there probably is some wear there, it seem a little sloppy. But what's sloppy to me might be tight to you, so...
I'll start with the latch. Oddly, the bottom edge gap on the door is fairly even front to back, so I really don't want to raise/level the door. This is the second time I've heard fiddling with the hinge could be lots of trial and error, which is why I posted this enquiry in the first place. I didn't want to mess with something finiky if it wasn't the real problem.
Rick, I'll also check the pads. I didn't realize (newbie) that this job was within the range of the do it yourself'er. tks again everyone.
Is the car on its wheels on a fairly level floor? Yes they are designed to flex Peter. All roadsters will. If its sitting a bit off level for months even on wheels it will conform to the environment.
As I asked before Mati was it that way when you bought it?
I wouldn't adjust any shims before I tried just a minor striker latch adjustment as Rick mentioned. Then you just have a minor adjustment if your off. When the door closes it climbs into the latch and will align bottom. So if you feel any play up and down in your door its pin and hinge wear.
As for different gaps between drivers and passengers.
Bingo! Bright light just came on in old guys head. Cars differential torques down on drivers side back rear. Up passengers front. If you look at your mount points in any parts book. If the rear driver side frame leg is kicked down a fraction it will make a diff. in gap. In most cases just larger at top.
"But my gaps are equal or close top to bottom but larger on drivers side." You say. Most Northern cars at least have had drivers floor panel and rocker in and out replaced. Due to rust. Any body mech. not doing full restore will concern himself more with an equal gap rather than size. The problem is adjusted to. Rather than cured. My own frame currently restoring has a 1.5 degree lower driver back corner. Both should be 15 degrees up. Couldn't quite figure that till now.
Measurements from vertical and cross check will tell but I bet on the B post drivers side flexed back pulled by back corner and consequently front edge of latch edge up even on wheels.
Hi Bill et al.
The doors did sag a litte when purchased, and with all four wheels on the ground. I took the advice and adjusted the striker plate. Presto - it works perfect. I still suspect the hinges, but at least this buys me a little time - to fix my Master Cylinder. See new thread! ARGH!! At this rate I'll be the one giving advice this time next year. :-)
Just been reading your comments on TR6 doors. I have just placed a deposit on a '74 TR6 subject to a test drive, (engine sounds as sweet as a bird)but I am concerned about the fit of the doors. Firstly the car is sitting on a congrete floor and appears to be square. On the drivers side the gap at the back of the door is equal but big enough to stick my index finger into all the way down. On the passengers side the top rear of the door is about half that of the drivers side narrowing down until it almost touches at the bottom. Both doors shut ok and their doesn't seem to be any slack in the hinges.Also the front edges of each door is in line with the rear of the wing and equal distace. I phoned the garage that services the car, ironically JD Motors and I was told that they are all like this?
Any comments please
What years the car? What are you going to pay? What are you looking for project/daily driver/hobby Sunday ride? Are you able to do work on the car yourself? How deep are your pockets?
No they are not all like that. Your description indicates a poor localized repair. Roadsters are not famous for great gaps but most were fairly equal. Left and right.
Best case scenario would be sloppy quick repair of rusted tub drivers side. Without removal from frame. Many are done that way by home mech. no experience or body shops due to cost and don't care.
Next worst, junk capped by tin and bondo. cleaned up for sale. Nice paint job?
Worst, all of the above plus frame rusted with torque twist. Rear back drivers drops. Trailing arm cross members rusted away and capped.
If you are paying under 5G with safety for Sunday drives go for it.
Over that have an appraisal done by appraiser and one that will qualify himself as knowing that cars structure, engine and faults. Probable cost $250 cheap in the long run. If the seller does not agree move on.
Let us know. I am not knocking anyone but I know of 2 very unhappy campers that have 12gs worth of nice painted rusted metal they would have been better off buying as projects for 2.
|Sorry 74 noted|
|Hi Bill, |
The owner is asking $15,000. I'm looking for a hobby car that I can maintain and drive. I'm sort of semi retired and I want to have a bit of fun while my knees will still bend to get in a sports car. I'm not into full restoration but I had a Midget and a Spitfire 30 odd years ago in the UK, so I'm ok with servicing.
Car has had a rebuilt engine & transmission, couldn't find any rust. Yes it's had a recent paint job. I have paid a 10% deposit subject to a full examination and test drive when the snow has gone. I intend to go back with a friend who has restored a couple of MG's, jack the car up and really check it out for rust etc. I will also measure the body panels and frame as much as possible to see where the discrepancy lies.
I phoned the garage that has done the engine / trans rebuild (JD Auto) and they told me the car is good, no rust and don't worry about the doors. Now I'm worried!
Would you happen to know of an appraiser or whoever, that can check the vehicle out and give it a clean bill of health....or not!
No I don't but I will see if I can find out.
Were is the car from? A "no rust" statement on a Canadian car is pretty strong?
At 15Gs that had better be one nice TR. Recent total restore and I mean frame off. Or a perfect original with a fine paint job and low milage. Lots of history and credentials. Engine and tranny rebuild could be simple or extensive. Get copies of work order and bill to find out what was done. Who did the paint and body. If its fresh owner should know and be willing to show the bill. The body shop if used will have info as to what was done. And how much Car in a can bondo was used? Lots of guys put 15 into them but its like restoring anything hard to get your money back.
Nice day and want to get to the shop but will post later. Let me know any of the above your aware of.
Apparently the car was bought from a friend and was resprayed yellow 'cause the current owner didn't like the tone of yellow that was their before. The milage is 54,000 miles, or so I was told. Engine rebuild was supposedly due to the car burning major oil. The car certainly isn't in as good condition as you suggest it should be, couple of nicks to the drivers seat and the hood. Rear bumper dented - new front. No tonnau.
I checked around for rust as much as I could and couldn't find any, but I couldn't get under the car. I specifically asked both the owner and the garage and they both said "no rust". I do know the engine fired up after a few turns and settled right down to a nice burble. Monza exaust, Stromberg carbs as standard. So, I get the feeling that the owner is honest and I'm a fairly cynical individual, but at the same time there are things that don't ring quite true. So I really need a second opinion. As mentioned, I'm going to take a friend up who has major MGB experience and who is also part owner of a garage, so if you don't know of a 'consultant' don't worry. I will let you know the outcome.
Very much appreciate your help.
Let me tell you what 15Gs gets ya. Dr. Bill knows what he is talkin'bout.
I bought a 71 literally in pieces including body off of the frame. 14Gs later I had a fully restored car with extensive new parts and some rebuilt parts. The only thing original from the entire brake system (and I mean entire) was the back drums. Body stripped to bare metal and repainted..California car so no rust. 100% new interiour including convertible top and cover. Both bumpers re chromed. Both new front fenders.
The only part of the restore I did not do was the body soda blast and paint. No I make the comment that there is no way in #@$^ I would sell my 6 for 15G.
My first thought is that 15Gs sounds a little high for an unrestored TR6 which looks nice and shiny with its new paint job..
P.S. Ken, you should go to the Ancaster spring swap meet, you will probable see a few for sale there...next month.
|If I was spending 15K It better be near perfect for me. And I better have O/D to boot! At 15 the interior must be flawless.|
At Ancaster last year I saw a very nice 1976 white TR6 all original and the 1st owner. It was near perfect in all ways and he was asking between 13 and 14K.
Was the full engine rebuilt? or just the heads? 54,000 is a bit young to be burning 'major oil' The engine is normally quite durable and for rings to go at 54K I would be suspect...154K is more like it. On the other hand my '75 burns oil and has 52K original miles however the oil is coming through the valvle guides which is normal as the car does not have seals and any wear in the valves or guides will burn oil on start up.
Gaps in body parts is part of the course, my car never hit nor restored has inconsistant gaps between the left door and the right door. One thing that I would check in that car is make sure that the car has the proper seams on the back deck. Missing them indicates an improper body repair.
|Hi Guys, thanks for the comments. Regarding the oil aspect, the owner told me that when JD Auto stripped the engine they found that the piston rings had been installed the wrong way round, ie oil seal and compression rings were reversed? This apparently was the cause of the heavy oil use. I don't think they touched the bottom end. While the engine was out they also re-did the clutch and transmission. According to JD Motors they also did a front suspension rebuild, by which I assume they mean new bearings etc. It does not have O/D which I would have liked. As I mentioned, I have only placed a deposit subject to road test etc. but I'm getting the distinct feeling from you guys that 15G is too high. Yes I will be going to the Ancaster show, as will the guy from JD Motors! I have a few weeks yet before I need to decide so we shall see. As an aside, I don't seem to see any badge bars for the 6 in any of the parts magazines. Are they not made or didn't they exist originally.|
Thanks once again for the comments fellas, it's nice to know that there is help out there.
Run from that car unless you see a zero knocked off the price. Talked to a couple of guys who do Evals but they were not interested. I do some for friends as they do but not licensed or insured. Check the yellow pages down there.
Your guy seems OK from description. I enclose a sight you might want to print for him specific to Trs. If he wants have him e-mail me and we can set up for a phone call.
From the last info you gave. Get an alignment check as well if the front was replaced and not back tells collision. Dent in back bumper for 15Gs is stupid.
Things stink to the high heaven. When I get a gut feel of wrong over the internet.
I sent a pic of RickCs car to you hope you have high speed. Thats a 15+ car. If you found a pebble tick he'd be making notes. The book is documentation of all the work done to Miss. The 14K he mentions has nothing to do with 100s of hours of hard work on his part.
This car sounds like a low end driver. If frame and alignment checks you might want to offer 5Gs and go as high as 6. depending on what your friend finds?
My opinion only and Stevens and Ricks by the sound of it. We can't see the car but we can be objective since we don't want it.:)
Appreciate that we are not trying to take any wind out of your sails. We are only tring to help. Bill has been the "bluntest" so far and sorry but I gotta agree with him. 5-6Gs is a little low though Bill. I know of a nice red "daily driver" up my way ('75 I think) and he is asking 12 but am sure a 100, 100 dollar bills, would give you a certified car. That is about $US 6-7G and is typical US prices.
I would wait to see what is available at Ancaster or at least see some other cars and asking prices for that condition.
Just went to above WEB site and there are 7 6s for sale...not local but at least a comparison on pricing. You will see some of the BBSers cars there also.
Thanks Bill for the compliment. You are close to the 100s of hours.
Steven, what seams on the back deck are you talking about?
Good luck Ken and if you see another, post here and let us know a little about what u are looking at.
Many thanks for the input and you haven't taken the wind out of my sails at all. I really do appreciate the help. I think the garage said they also did a rear end rebuild as well as a front end. I don't have any work records so I'm working from memory (which ain't good) The car also has a new front bumper sans rubber over-riders, while the back has original with the rubber. Also new tires with alloy spoked rims. Minilite Replicas I guess.He is including the old steel rims in the sale plus some other bits and pieces. He had also started replacing hoses with the green ones which I thought was good. Thing is, he seemed pretty proud of the vehicle. I didn't get the feeling that he was trying to off load it. His reason for selling it is that he "has too many toys and not enough time". He runs a machine engineering company and has a Harley as well.
Anyway, thanks to one and all and I compliment you on your car Rick, looks beautifull. I will let you know what happens down the road, so to speak.
|Hi Ken and all|
Please check this sight for pricing info. I have gone through this and others and I keep coming up with 10Gs very nice car. This is for Canada. Read the lower portion as well as to grading.
Not trying to take the wind out of anyones sails nor do I believe the seller is trying to take anyone. Just wants to play with his toys and have someone else pay. Probably feels the price is totally justified.
In most cases car was bought for 9/10/11 add paint job didn't like the color?? Yah right. If you spend the bucks on a paint because you don't like the shade. You don't leave back bumper with dents?? Paint 1 to 2G? Motorwork tranny 2G? Front end rear end 1G? aha I now have a 15,000 dollar car. Wrong.
That is the way the car should have been when purchased for 10. You have just brought it up to the level you thought you bought. Because you didn't do your homework. Or if owned for any length of time just maintenence. When the tranny drops out on the buick and costs 2500 to replace it doesn't add value to the car just keeps it going down the road.
Yes I am blunt. About 5 years ago I wired a a nice guys dream car bought as a not quite finished totaly restored project for way to much money. The seller had pop rivets and Bondo and a nice paint job on sale for 8. This guy bought for 8 and then went cazy trying to finish for summer. Wiring was beyond him so friend of friend suggested he call me. Quite frankly the wiring was about the best thing on the car. Seller had pop riveted supports to the B posts etc. and bondo'd the rust. A very enthusiastic home job. I never said a word. Got it going and watched a big smile leave the driveway. Smoking all the way I felt very bad. He smiled for a week and drove a little for 2 months trying to keep running till he gave up and sold for 3 all he could get and in his case sleep at night.
Not all cases are this bad but from the bit you have posted Ken I just sense something wrong. I also can't see a fella who owns a Harley and is in machining trade buying anything for big bucks that smokes like a freight train. Just doesn't add up. You have to get copy of the sellers package info. And copies of the work orders. Thats were to start if you want the car. Call the guys who owned it back whenever.
In my opinion again a 15G Canadian TR6 had better be perfect with a documented pedigree that would make Lassy envious.
|If this car is in Mississauga, hold on!!!!! I went to see the car in the fall and of the 10 or so that I saw at the time, it was the worst. The nice yellow was painted over gorgeous rust. Lots of it. It's also had lots of repairs to the frame. I paid $10,600 for my car a few months later and it looks like it's worth $5,000 more. And at my price, I still think I overpaid now that I've got it home and had a much closer look. Go see the car Rick has mentioned. Go to Ancaster, go to the US. |
As for pricing, I'm still not sure what the right price is for a used TR6. I don't there really is one, despite all the good advice you've been given here. One bay, a beauty is selling for $25K. There's one in Toronto for the same price, orignal 40k or so. How much skill, time and specialty tools do you have? How much will JD motors complete for you? Two new doors will set you back $2000...how much body work can you afford?
As for parts, get a Moss catalogue and double the price of everything. That's what it will cost you with exchange and shipping. A new interior alone..seats $1,000 + labour, carpets..$600, panels...$1,000+ add a dash, new seat belts, odds and ends, it will cost you $5000 alone. Like a kitchen renovation, it will probably be worth %60 of what you paid when it's all finished.
My car will be a joy to fix and repair as dollars and time permits. Was it a good buy, for me it was. If you'd like to visit and take a look at what I got, feel free to contact me.
|I just checked the URL and you are better to type in Hemmings.com and then go to nada then international then Canada TR6 etc. For full info. Sight blind sides direct link.|
Hey Mati I forgot you were shopping recently or I would have mailed you.
You might take him up on that Ken gives you one more resource.
|There's a young fellow here in Montreal who bought a nice TR6 with 50,000 original miles and a recent paint job on it last summer from someone in the Gatineau north of Ottawa for $11,000 CDN. It had a click in the rear end when he dropped the clutch to move out and he has since got it fixed, but that was about it. It didn't have an overdrive.|
I think $15,000 is too much.
Don Elliott, 1958 TR3A
|Another perspective. My car was given to me for the towing fee - $75, and it truly is rust free, engine toast though.. $10,000 later and uncountable hours (though I have enjoyed the process), it is not even painted yet. This is a keeper - I knew all along that it was no investment except for the fun I'll have for years to come, which to me, is quite the investment. And it won't depreciate. Caveat Emptor/Buyer beware (I think that is how it's written). The fact that it is in latin may give a clue as to just how long buyers have had to beware. Peter G|
How are the doors commin along????
MAN...Talk about a thread taking a U turn!
Bill, u have hit the nail dead on the head...the seller is trying to get back the money he has put into it as well as the purchase price and u are absolutely correct....it does not work that way!
Peter, at that price you stole it!!! Take a pic of her and post it to the WEB page I mentioned above.
Well Ken, I think the simple word at this point is....NEXT! Maybe you should e-mail Mati as he has done a recent search.
| Hi Rick!|
I looked at both doors and made some changes. The latch plate on the driver door was adjusted and it now closes nicely, however the gap will remain. My car has had some bodywork (fenders etc) replaced in the past, it would probably cost me a fortune to properly repair this daily driver.
The passenger door was a little too far foward and the latch was not meeting up perfectly, so I adjusted the hinges and moved the door back a notch and voila, it works nicely and the gap was also very slightly reduced.
It's all coming together, Brake and Cluth MC cyclinders are rebuilt and ready for install, roof is fitted nicely, just waiting for 15C to use contact cement and finish the job. Interior is cleaning up nicely - what's next?? Warm weather?
Ken, I did a little spread sheed on the cars I was looking at, and the Corvette Yellow TR6 simply didn't get a rating because of the rust. I could see the new paint blistering. BTW - he was asking $12,000 last fall. Sorry. It sure looked nice and those wheels are beautiful.
Let me know if I can help, as a newbie, I've learned some lessons.
This thread was discussed between 27/02/2003 and 18/03/2003
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