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Triumph TR6 - Electric fan ?
|I am currently running the stock cooling fan on my 6 with no cooling issues. My question is since I am changing to a D.Masters wiring harness and alternator upgrade would it be benefiting to convert to an electric fan? Is it more reliable and is there any noticeable power gain?|
|As an owner of said upgrade I suggest you do it as he can include it in the relay setup.I don't know of anyone who has installed an electric fan and is unhappy with the setup. Pusher or puller it is your call.|
Where in Md do you live?
|I have never understood why on one forum you hide your identity and on another everyone tends to talk to each other on a first name basis and tend to "sign" their posts. |
I just noticed something else. There tends to be MORE double posting (the same question). I suppose twice the replies.
|I made this upgrade on my TR4a about 9 years ago, and would recommend it.|
The main benefit is that the fan will not cool the rad when its not needed, after a cold start or at highway speed, but will give full fan speed in stop and go traffic when the mechanical fan is turning slowly and doing very little because the engine is idling.
Any power gain is very small, and at least partly the product of wishful thinking, but should measure about 3 bhp at high revs.
|Sorry about posting the same question on 2 forums, but its like Rick C. said.... double the replies. Thanks for all of the input. In reply to Don K. I live in Manchester, Md. This is just below the Pa. line in Carroll County.|
|Spent 18 years in the Rockville area and have inlaws in Fredrick and family in Poolesville|
|Rick- So am I to comprehend from your last post that you now read the other side?|
No not really. Just have not been there for quite a while and just curious what is happening there. Get regular e-mail from Bazil. That BBS has grown considerably (Member 467).
|I installed a 16" fan this winter and the car runs so much cooler, i have an adjustable thermostat so I can let it run a tad warmer in the cooler weather.|
This along with wrapping the exhaust manifold has greatly reduced underhood temperatures and to date (at least in my mind?) it runs better, especially in hot stop and go situations..the carbs no longer are wheezing from too high a temp.
very highly recommended..also, doesnt hurt to drop that 6 lbs of fan and extension of the crank...
|My next question is who makes the best and where to purchase this setup. Also I don't want major modifications so that I could return it to its normal state if need be. Thanks again for all of your inputs.|
|Check the archives. Permacool puller fan & harness/relay/T-stat from Jeg's and fan extension elimnator kit from Scott(?). Do you ride a Speed Triple?|
Yes, I was the original owner of a black 99 Speed Triple (MI2) but unfortunately I just sold it to please the wife. This way she dosen't complain about all of the money I am spending on the TR, but hey thats half the fun of owning these cars...right. I have always had a passion for British hardware and as you all know the dollars can add up.
It was the best motorcycle I have ever owned and I probably will purchase another S3 or a Norton when I complete the TR.....If I ever finish the TR.
|Bob - your adjustable thermostat interests me....could you please post some details? Thanks|
Jim, FWIW, I agree entirely with Simon and 6 years ago installed the unit Rick O mentioned with no problems and plenty of accolades...! Another immediate improvement for me was the reduced noise from under the hood, so now I can listen to the engine a bit easier (although still difficult above the exhaust noise!!)
|Jim--The S3's are very intriguing bikes although I can't deal with the ergos (read: I need to lose weight). I currently ride the wife's Bonnie T100 & my SpeedMaster. Convince your spousal unit about the mental benefits of the Daytona 675. I think you're out of look on a new Norton as the company went out of business (again).|
I used the flexalite trimline 16 inch fan, it pulls 2500 CFM (very very rapid cooling!) at about 16 amp. The variable thermostat (also from Flexalite) allows several benefits..
Senses coolant temp. via the radiator core (see below) and sets fan speed from 60% to 100%, depending on built-in fan thermostat setting. So at high temp it runs 100% and then it drifts down to 60 % as temp cools off and then 0 when below the threshold.
Thermostat range: 155 - 220 degrees Fahrenheit. Allows greater control over engine temp: reduces charging spikes and current load on charging system. It also directs fan to run for 30 seconds after vehicle is turned off, just like modern cars have
I mounted mine on the back side of the driver side wheel well...easy hookup and sort of protected.
For me the big key was for stop and go traffic, last summer when we were hitting 90-100 degrees, if i was stopped at a light or train crossing or like...i could watch the temp gauge climb and climb..the old original fan doesnt pull enough and because of it having no shroud to the rad it wasnt effective in creating that suction. One could consider building a shroud as an option?
I did a recent club rally over back roads, hills, towns with stop and gos and while occaisionally the temp would get to 185/190 the fan kicked on immediately and brought it down to 160 in seconds (30?)
Also, removed the old fan and extension..about 6 lbs from the crank...that had its benefits too! I can provide you the name of a TR guy who makes the parts for removing/replacing the fan extension with a balancer.
The downside...only one aspect of the flexalite i didnt like is the temp probe..it is the type that fits between the fins of the radiator rather then drilling and mounting into the manifold...i prefer that type approach because there is less chance of spring a wee leak in the rad from forcing the fins and also I think a direct probe is even more accurate since its not a metal to metal heat transfer..that is resolved by the adjustable which allows you to set a range of on off, not by measured temp but by observed temp.
A hint for installing a probe type sensor...get the engine warmed up so the rad is also "hot" this provides some flexibility in the fins to get the probe in...work it gently yet firmly in...i ended up with no leaks with this approach.
I can send pictures of the set up if you mail me your address.
No body has mentioned running both. In my high performance street rod days we would do that. One puller and one pusher. Of course the mechanical version (stock TR) steals a bit of pony power and the electric comes across attractive for that reason for you speed demons. But you do have room to do both, if not a thermo switch run a on/off switch for the electric fan. You can put one in front and one behind, if you play with the shroud a bit (good time to build a aluminium shroud)
|I put a pusher in. I feel it gives me more acceleration and better fuel economy. I'll get 30+mpg on the freeway.|
|Just a couple of points on the practical side of things...|
Puller fans have some protection from the elements and road debris being sited as they are behind the radiator but locations are sometimes a compromise due to the inlet and outlet hoses being where they are.
Pusher fans act to a small extent as a block to air flow when they are not operating. The point of them being pushed into the radiator in a minor shunt is also worth some thought.
Adding a shroud / duct to make sure ALL air is going through the radiator will help considerably.
This should be done BOTH sides of the radiator otherwise the benefit is compromised and ir will simply take the path of least resistance by passing the radiator and fan assembly.
Finally fans are circular so the "rule of circles" also applies. In other words it may be easier and more beneficial to fit two smaller fans than try and fit one large one.
Cheers , Pete.
|Peter is correct on the two smaller fans,|
A Shelby Cobra with a 427 runs 2 fans. It cools that monster block down no problem.
|I'll take odds on the Cobra rad being rectangular..? The TR rad is the perfect size to suit a 16" fan. Showing my ignorance here, but I have a feeling that a single 16" will move more air than 2x8" fans (aside from the difficulty of fitting 2x8 inchers...) will someone please enlighten me...??|
Sorry for the somewhat less than clear comment.
The point I was trying to make is given the practical considerations of fitting fans , it may be easier to get the required cooling air flow by fitting two fans of a smaller diameter than attempting to fit one fan of a larger diameter especially if the radiator is rectangular.
For example a radiator 10" x 16" will be better covered by two 8" fans than by fitting a single 10" fan. The area of the single fan is 314 sq inches and the twin fans are 201 x 2 = 402 sq inches.
Having said all that you are quite correct in stating a single 16" fan will cover more area then 2 x 8" fans and all other factors being equal should flow more air.
I hope this is a more helpful post.
Cheers , Pete.
|Ahem, Let's just try those numbers again shall we?|
The 8 " fan covers 50 sq inches so two will cover 100 sq inches and the 10 " covers 78 sq inches.
Just for the comparison the 16" fan Roger has fitted covers 201 sq inches.
Not sure where the brain was on the first reply...obviously not talking to the fingers at any rate!
This what you get for trying to do things after midnight.
Cheers , Pete.
|Actually Pete I thought you might be one of those dudes standing out in a flattened crop field looking skyward.......circles, what circles? ;-) (Burning the midnight oil has it's moments.....)|
I agree entirely with you on the practiclities of pullers v pushers - never liked pushers myself and have been a puller from wayback!
|Roger , |
Yeah it was one of those days alright. LOL.
What's that old expression...
"Of all the things I have ever lost I miss my mind the most"
Cheers , Pete.
|Screw it. One fan pushing works great. Coolent temp never wavers even in Stop an Go traffice on 95 degree days. Pushing fan keeps blades away from fingers.|
|I'm presently driving in 80 degree temps....stock rad and fan blade...160 thermostat ...stop and go traffic barely reaches halfway mark on gauge and cruising it sits just a hair past 1/4.|
For me a fan is not worth it....are electric fans really needed...apart from the extra weight which I doubt we would notice in performance..
just thinking out loud guys..
|The way I see it, is that most variations to the factory car are improvements or we wouldn't do them - these cars are more like 50 year old technology than 35. These cars also left the factory without oil coolers, though the holes for an oil cooler are there. Can we presume they were not designed for hotter climates? |
As discussed in the past, the fan is only needed when the car is moving slow or stationary. (Do Formula 1 cars have fans?)
To move the fan requires power and while the engine is running - use that power. Simple enough - except that it is using that power whether the car needs the fan or not. Electric fans are only used when the car need cooling and the rest of the time there is no power loss. I accept that the consumption of the fan may be small, but is does continuously move the air and there is no clutch on it. 1 or 2 hp here and there does add up. I reckon that's why there is trend to electric power steering and airconditioning systems these days.
The other issue is efficiency. The stock fans may do the job but an electric one does it so much better. More air flow, closer to the core etc made is a logical choice for me. Our temps always reach at least 40C (105F) in summer, and while it's no fun to be in the TR in that weather, it happens occasionally. The fringe benefit for me is the reduction in noise under the hood.
If my car was original, I probably wouldn't go electric - I would preserve it's integrity - but it's not original. There's no right or better way - do what suits - just keep the cars on the road (and pull over if it gets too hot!!!)
|I went with an electric puller a few years ago and it has been a real confidence builder. No longer do I fret when sitting in city traffic anxiously waitng for the gauge to peg-high. The electric only runs when it has to (or I override it) and I don't have to resort to 'fixes' like cold coolant thermostats or fast idling.|
|Charlie, that is interesting! Mine is also stock fan, (15" diam.)with NO thermostat. On Sunday past the temp was 32 C, and the engine while cruising was running at a bit above the 1/2 way point on the temp gauge. When the engine was working hard going uphill, the temp gauge moved to just under the 3/4 mark. So far there has been no mention on this thread about the efficiency of the water pump, or rad, and I am wondering if my water pump is doing a good job. The system has been flushed recently and is clean. In addition the engine just went through a rebuild, and the block hot dipped to clean all the "gunk" out. The rad is not new, but "looks" in good shape to me. Also my coolant mixture is about 50/50 coolant/distilled water, so there is lots of room before boil point. So why would this engine run hotter?? Only 2 things come to mind...1) water pump and or 2) rad. Is there a simple way to test water pump? Any comments would be appreciated.|
You mentioned you are NOT running with a thermostat. Have you installed a blanking plate or tube (terminology varies from place to place fotr this item)to take the place of the thermostat?
The 'stat usually is designed to help direct water flow inside the block as well as aid with a quick warm up.
Persdonally I would reinstal the thermostat and see if that makes a difference.
Cheers , Pete.
I agree with Pete..you should have a theromostat in place...I use a 160 to run the car cooler and I don't need 180 or 195 as there is no winter driving ect
|I think Pete means he has an electric fan without the adjustable thermostat control, only a manual override.|
|Eric de Lange|
|If your Temp gauge moves at all it means your thermostat is no longer controling your engine temp. The themostat opens and closes to keep the engine at a constant temp. If the temp goes high your heating has exceeded your cooling capabillities. In other words your your thermostat is wide open and your engine is getting hotter because there is not enough cooling air going through the radiator or you have a problem with your system like a plugged radiator or low coolent level. I adjusted my fan thermostat to keep the radiator/coolent cool enough to to keep it in the range where the engine thermostat can control the engine temp. My temp gauge comes up to about mid point and stays there, but, maybe then again, it just might be stuck.....|
|What you all failed to read in my post was that THERE IS NO THERMOSTAT. NONE ANYWHERE! This (omission, intentional or not)was the previuos owner, not my decision. I felt that since there is no restriction (thermostst), the coolant would flow freely to the engine to give maximum cooling. I picked up a 160 F thermostat yesterday, and will see if this makes any difference. And no I do not have an electric fan...plain old stock, crank driven plastic fan.|
|Hello All -- To give myself some added peace of mind driving in the hot weather I went ahead and installed the Permacool 16in fan in the normal configuration. And then ... I thought .. why not wire it up according to Dan Master's recommendation so that I can get the manual override capability. Well, that pretty much max'ed out my electrical skills. I've got the DPDT switch, the optional light and a 4 terminal relay connections figured out. The part I don't understand is the connection from the thermostat switch back to the DPDT switch. What wire coming out of the Perma-Cool module would I use for that? The Blue A/C wire?|
Thanks for the help.
|Grounding the blue wire with the fan OFF should cause the fan to come ON. I used a simple SPST switch mounted above my left knee for that override function.|
|Hi Rick -- thanks for the info. I ended up taking the relay out of the equation and went with an SPST switch in the cockpit along with a light that I added by tapping into the fan motor wiring so that that I could satisfy myself that either I turned the fan on manually or it came on when the thermo switch activated it.|
In the end I'm not sure that I really needed an electric fan. I ran the engine in my garage during the recent heat wave we encountered and couldn't seem to get the temp much more than 185 degrees. But at least I know that while I'm baking in the car at an intersection the car should be cooling off!!
|I powered my fan straight off the battery terminal, not through the fusebox. It's a much simpler and reliable install that way, and you don't need the extra relay Dan Masters correctly says you need. [Dan is THE expert IMHO--thanks for all your advice Dan!}. My ammeter needles' swing to the left is the telltale that the fan is ON.|
|Sean, The air temperature in your garage is probably not as hot as the air temperature on the same day when in traffic. The sun on the pavement may raise the temperature of the air being drawn into your cooling system quite a bit. More so, in traffic with all of those other engines around you putting off 200 deg. heat. On my MGA the heat causes fuel problems before the engine overheats. I am going to install a fan to see if it will help with this problem. Does anyone know if "modern" fuel boils at a lower temperature than the "old" fuels we had 40 years ago? I don't remember having this problem then. But, there was less traffic in those days, and maybe we kept on moving on more than nowdays.|
This thread was discussed between 12/06/2006 and 10/08/2006
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