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Triumph TR6 - Ign lite and oil priming
|The magic moment (startup) is very close after many months, but now I have no ign lite though the bulb is good, could this be exposing an alternatot problem? Any ideas ? And, will I need to prime the oil pump, and if so, what is the best way. Peter G|
|Not sure about the wiring problem - is the battery charged? Terminals clean?|
Whn it's time to prime the oil pump I've always
just turned the engine over with the spark plugs out so the starter turns over fast. Also keep the fuel disconnected. In 10-15 seconds the oil pressure comes up and oil is circulating. Just don't stay on the starter more than 30 seconds in a 15 minute period, though - don't want to get it too hot.
Consider that the prince of darkness has invaded your space. Take a good look at connections and NEVER accept a visual look at a tiny bulb as to confirmation wether it is good or not....get the ohm meter out. Keep in mind that alternator failure would give the light on constantly and you are not there yet. Normally the light should be on till the car is started then go out. At this point suspect bad connection especially ground.
Get her started Peter and see what happens then. Good luck and let us know what happens on the start up.
| Did test the ign lite bulb - OK.|
Given that this engine has never seen oil before, is cranking enough? I know with some engines, it just does'nt do it and priming is reqired: and I hate to do damage cranking a dry motor (except for assembly lube - how long will that last?) Peter G After all this work, I am cautious..
|Peter--I understand your concern. Others will weigh-in here, but I believe you can remove the distributor/drive dog and spin the oil pump with a drill sufficient to pressurize the galleries. Unfortunately, I've never done this and can't provide details on the exact procedure.|
A trick used by hot rod guys when building very expensive engines is to pressurize the oil system through the oil pressure sending unit hole in the block. This will require some rigging to get a hose / fitting that will connect to the threaded hole. Also you'll need to concoct a pump with which to pressurize the system.
I am about to start an engine rebuild and will absolutely engineer this into the process.
If I don't here before I get there, I'll post the details of how I accomplish this.
|The engine is really under very little load when spun with the plugs out - which will be why it turns over so fast. The assembly lube will be fine, in my opinion.|
Sorry didn't read this post.
Make sure all systems are go for fire up. Because of the TR6 design oil pump pre-lubing does not work. Nor is it real neccesary for 6 cyl. V8s require pump prelube more so due to V design when you fill with oil your only dealing with one side.
You can use Brents method in addition to this if you wish. As long as you setup to do it right away. Don't try a nascar 20 second plug install Peter a few minutes is OK. Just don't go to the beach for a swim.:)
With a funnel made from a gallon container bottom cut off spout down. Change the oil just before fire up. You want to fill your valve cover quickly front to back making oil push down all internal passages. Watch you don't make a mess. The oil will backflow due to 6s vertical design down all passages. Even to the pump giving it somewhat of a prime. Give this about a minute or two not 20.
Get inside start don't rev. and watch your oil pressure should come up in a second if all is working. If not kill it fast. Try to let engine run up to temperature before shutting off if all works. You should be fine.
The prelube will keep things Ok for startup in most cases by itself. Cam lobes are most critical.
SteveD nice to hear Rodding from another poster. Watch the pressure priming. Block must be perfectly clean. When engine is not turning possible damage to seals. Make sure your system is adjustable.
Peter as this is an old style engine follow old style breakin procedures as well.
If I am not clear ask.
|Will be into the weekend before I can do anything else. Waiting for a few cooling system parts to arrive also. Think I'll,at least, get the oil pump filled first - can see that Bills idea could work. And yes, I'll observe all break-in procedures - do'nt want to do this again soon. Thanks guys, Peter G You'll be the first to know when she fires up.|
No one has mentioned packing the oil pump with Vaseline(petroleum jelly). Of course, this has to be done well before the stage that you are at now, but is very effective.
It works, because the oil pump is initially full of air, when the negative pressure it can generate may not be enough to lift cold, stiff, heavy oil up from the sump with any speed. Once the oil is there, the pump works on oil, not air, and is much more efficient. The Vaseline gives the pump 'something to work on', the negative pressure is much greater and the oil arrives without delay.
Vaseline, because it will stay in the pump while you finish the installation, and because it dissolves in engine oil much more easily than grease - you don't want globs of that in your oilways any more than you want blood clots going round your arteries!
I have done this ever since a brand new oil pump just wouldn't pick up and start pumping oil, and it works every time.
|Well, whatever you do, it's a good idea to make sure that the oil filter and all the galleys are filled before you crank it up. You'll experience time dilation if you don't - those 5 seconds or so before the oil pressure comes up will seem like really long time...|
|In my experience, the way to prime the pump for initial startup is:|
Remove the Distributor and the the dist drive gear. Get a 1/2" wooden dowel(6"-8"long), and cut a slot in one end. the slot should be not quite 1/8" wide, and about 1/4" deep. this will engage the oil pump shaft. Mount the dowel into a 1/2" drill, and then position the slotted end into the recess where the dist. drive gear was located. Ensure the direction of rotation on the drill is correct. It should rotate in the same direction as the distributor shaft. Then spin the shaft using the drill. A few seconds, and uou should have a noticable increase in resistance, indicating oil is present in the pump, continue as long as you like, but a 20 to 30 second interval should give you plenty of priming.
All of the other ideas mentioned are valid, but I am like you, I want to KNOW there is oil there for that first startup!
Yes you must have a clean block to do this. The trick is to have not more than 50 psi behind the oil being fed into the block. Be patient and the oil will ooze all through the system.
I had planned to use this process on my TR6 rebuild, but I really like the dowel in the oil pump idea from Mark.
It's all good stuff.
|This should be called a 'Smorgasboard' rather than a Bulletin board, everything offered, take your pick. Thanks for all the help. Peter G|
|I made a driver from steel to prime the oil pump and turned it down to fit in a 3/8 drill motor(4 amp). It works fine, but the resistance of the oil will cause the drill motor to become quite warm after a min. A wooden dowel may not be strong enough. Also,the one area that won't be lubed (the cam lobes) is probably the most critical. One of the benefits of using the oil filter adapter, is that it allows the filter to be filled with oil before starting. Even thogh it is comforting to see oil slobbering from the rocker arms and pressure on the gauge before starting, it ay not be worth the effort to remove the dist. and prime the pump.|
|Good stuff guys- Here's my question (1 day I actually plan on starting my rebuild). I plan on using the dist. method ,as I have a spin on oil filter is it a good idea to fill the filter with oil before I start the engine or probably before I start to turn the dist?|
Always fill the oil filter even doing an oil change if its vertical on any car.
JohnDs pack method works well especialy on older reused pumps. Since the oil pump is the heart of the engine you had it checked, rebuilt or replaced right? Some rebuilders actually do this for insurance. Last pump out the door Friday on way to pub do exist.
I like to preprime and bench test before it goes into the car new or old. Nothing like pulling a motor when you can't get the pan off in the car to change a $40.00 new in GM'S case pump that won't prime?
As there are no check valves in the engine my method works for vertical 6s. If the pump is worn too bad you will get a dry start after a slow oil change or week in the garage? Gravity is a wonderous thing. But does not affect lots of prelube. So you should be OK no matter what method you choose.:)
|Like Don K says, interesting stuff. Ok for the rest of us folk who have not done a rebuild but suffer from winter gravity any comments on starting sleeping beauty? I did not do an oil change last fall, so first will be an oil change and a fill of the filter. Mine is at about 45* angle facing forward so not able to do a complete fill. I did not think it was possible to have the filter facing straight down...correct??|
|Rick-I use the equivalent of a Fram ph3600 filter and it is almost vertical, maybe at 7 o'clock position.|
|It is possible to have the filter very close to vertical - I seem to remember reversing something to make room - will look and post if I can remember. Think it was the clutch slave, which is rotatable and just reverses where the line and bleed screw come out. Either way, it can be done. So, I did replace the oil pump and did fill the filter and also have a magnetic drain plug and a ring of magnets around the filter. Cautious, you bet. Peter G|
I'm a little jealous of you in Hawaii no doubt a lot warmer than I am !!! It's going down to -15 tonight here !! BRRRRRRRRR.. Do you recall where you got your magnetic drain plug and the part # ?? I'm having a hard time here..I've been to the usual automotive places / suppliers but no-one has one that fits a TR6 and is magnetic.
|I don't care if it's C or F, - 15 is COLD. I grew up in Florida. Moss has a magnetic plug - p/n 328-355. US$ 12.85.|
|Thanks brent ! Peter G|
|OK guys somewhat up and down as opposed to the horizontal one sticking out the side. Put as much oil in as you can manage. Helps to prevent air gap.|
Please fill me in why filters can't sit vertical as designed?
Charlie they don't work worth a damn. Your pump strainer and filter takes care of shavings. To be real fussy grab a rare earth chunk from P auto and slap it at the bottom back of your sump.2 bucks. If I new you were looking for that I could have given you one about an inch round you can't peel off with your fingers.
PeterG would you mind getting that thing fired up buddy the suspense is killing everyone. And with your weather you should be rolling.:)
|The ONLY priming method that worked was the dowel driving the pump through the distributor drive, and it was immediate. So she is fired up and running at 80# hot. Charging but no light, no gages except tach and oil pressure (both mechanical), any ideas, is there a common power point for the gages - please. Peter G|
Not sure what you mean by 'no light' but the temperature and fuel gauge share a common green/lt green wire from the voltage stabilizer, which should be hot whenever the key is on. If you need to backtrack, the stabilizer on my '71 is mounted on the back of the speedo, at the top of the case.
|Hi Peter |
Do you have any electrical items working from the dash. Turn signals /horn. Try to describe what works and what doesn't?
The most common thing with your problem is a bad ground? Do you have dash lights?
There is or should be a ground wire that bridges the coupling on your steering column at the bottom is it there.
Did you have the dash all apart let me know so I know were to start.
|EVERYTHING else on the car works, all lights, including dash lights,starter relay, turns,horn, emergency flasher, oil warning, brake warning, ignition (except lamp!) She charges, but does not show it on the voltmeter, no temp or gas gauges.Will check power to voltage stabilizer - have ordered new one in case.Thanks for your assistance. Peter G|
|Hi peter |
Sounds like your on the track will try to think on any others. Check ground and power those are pretty reliable. Sleep time here.
Did you find a solution to the ignition light problem? I have the same problem when I put a new wiring loom in after a conversion to RHD, everything electrical works and the alternator is charging but no ignition light [I checked the bulb].
As a last resort I was going to replace the bulb holder in case it is faulty but havn't done so yet.
|No, Ron, not yet. My car is currently down as you may have seen from other threads.Am suspecting ign lite may be connected via Voltmeter (which was bad) as everything else works and she charges just fine. Have new meter but not installed yet - more pressing things. However, if voltmeter works and light does not, who cares as long as I know I'm charging.Will report if light does work. Have found that circuit diagrams don't always agree with the reality. Peter|
I now at long last have a working ignition light. The alternator [Lucas 17acr] had a fourth terminal and the loom on a RHD car has a plug for only three terminals, I took the alternator to an auto electrician and he made an internal modification to do away with the fourth terminal and only charged £5.
Happyness is a cheap repair.
|Cheap repair ?? did'nt know there was such a thing. My car has been down for 6 weks just getting diff axle shafts apart to change seals.Should be back up in a couple of days so I'll know if ign light works now. Will report. Thanks for input. Peter G|
|You know Peter, we usually leave repairs like that to the dark days of winter but since YOU DO NOT HAVE THAT PROBLEM. Our hearts bleeds for you. At least the six should have a good coat of wax while you wait and don't forget to clean the lei's out of the boot.|
|True Don, but I've missed all those beatiful spring days - you gotta be careful top down in the tropics - sun is intense. Plusses and minus's everywhere.We are only days away from our first longest day - sun dead overhead. Peter|
This thread was discussed between 02/02/2003 and 05/05/2003
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