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Triumph TR6 - Lower End Bearings choice?
|Well had our first snow fall so it is time to start thinkin' 'bout the winter project(s).|
This winter I will be doing the lower end mains and connecting rods bearings. Also I think I will go with Scott Helms thrust washers that Charlie B. put us on to. http://users.arczip.com/zntech1/tr6.html
I have a new oil pump to install.
My question on the bearings is: what/who is my best choice for these bearings? This is something I want to do once and forget.
|Geee Rick maybe you should have done an ARCHIVE search. April 2004 "Engine Bearings"|
C. Parker, have you done some search and find of bearings?
Anybody with any current info on bearings supply?
|anyone know what type of gauge I need in order to measure the thrust washer float. Also any ideas on where to get the above mentioned gauge. Thanks in advance.|
|Hi Rick. I spent a lot of time this year trying to find the 'Vandervell VP2' bearings and without success, so I widened my search and as I am an 'EX' pat from England I had a few old friends look for me and the story was still the same,I then had a friend tell me about these bearings that were made in 'Israel' called 'King'so I continued my investigations and managed to find a set in the States! they were +010thou and were the nearest thing that I have found to the old Vandervell. They are current production and are Try Metal. I have rebuilt my motor and the Quality seems excelent they mesured up and fitted without any deburing or mismatching, I have the car running now for the past 2 weeks with 11-1 comp and on tripple webers with about 180 bhp and after giving it a thrashing today and Hot It idles at 60psi oil pressure This would not be the case If I had bought the bearings from Moss Motors.I am trying to find the recipt so I can tell you who I purchased them from but I know for both the Mains and Ends the bill was not more than $120 and I think it was from JAM engineering corp. You can find them on the web, If I come up with the paperwork I will let you know. Hope I have been of some help TO JW Get a dial guage on the front crankshaft pulley, just go to your local machine shop and ask them to measure the float It will only take them about 5 min Maybe cost you a 12 pack Clive|
Go to this link.
The round gauge is a "depth" style of indicator (not deflection). For $30 this looks like a good deal...read the reviews and same was said. Did not mention anywhere its' resolution (.010" or .001") you want at least .001". .0001" is the ultimate. From the picture it looks like .001" resolution. Do a WEB search "dial indicator" and you will see more. The magnetic base would/will be most helpfull. Also go to my link above for procedure on measuring "play".
Clive, Thanks, I have sent out a few e-mails asking the questions "do you supply tr-metal...who's the mfger....price". I sent to JAM also.
Please, if you find the invoice, let us all know. I am sure I am not the only one who is contemplating/doing this project. Quality is definitely an issue. My application will not be for a "hopped up" 6 though. My odometer simply says it is time (not to mention my oil pressure gauge:).
Thanks again Clive....Where are you in FL.? will be coming down to St. Petes beginning of Jan.
|This info is from the May 2004 Detroit Triumphs newsletter; lacking genuine Vandervell's, you should consider Clevite and never use Glacier. |
"The rod bearings that came in all TR-2 through TR-6s were lined with Vandervell”s famous VP-2 material. This is a tri -metal lining consisting of sintered copper on a steel shell with a lead- indium alloy layer on top of that and finally a tin plated layer on top. These bearings have good imbeddebility, very high load carry-ing capacity, and are somewhat tolerant of misalignment and momentary losses of oil pressure. These are great bearings! They are rated for carrying loads of up to 10,500 psi.
Glacier bearings are two layer bearings that consist of an aluminum bearing alloy on top of a steel back. If all conditions are perfect they work very well. They do NOT have good embeddebility, are quite hard and are very unforgiving. If anything goes wrong with the oiling system, or there is any misalignment, they will instantly fail and wipe out the crank journal. Their load carrying capacity is about 6,500 psi.
Clevite makes a trimetal bearing that is cast copper-lead and can withstand loads of 12,000 psi."
Buy the best measuring devices you can afford. Only when you need them. Same applies to Taps and Dies.
I have a few Starret Mics but everything else is Mitutoyo. Lowest price I could find for that same setup would be $135 US. That's for dial not digital. Very accurate.
If a rough end float measure is all you will ever use it for? The one shown by Rick may be OK? If your planning on engine work buy the Mitutoyo. Don't think I would trust the other? I think mine was $340 bucks Canadian so don't feel bad. Dealing with thousands of an inch my choice since I'm old. Close is not good enough?
Another tool that no one thinks of as trick?
As a word of advice to everyone if you ever need lets say a 3/8 NF die to make something or chase a thread. Buy a Union Butterfield split adjustable. Will probably cost the same as a cheap set by itself. More if you don't have the handle? But with a bit of practice you can do amazing work. I have pretty much a full set. NF/NC and a few left hand sizes aquired over many years. Taps as well down to screw threads.
I can pretty much rate a visitors level when he looks in those drawers and either stops and stares or keeps going. 2 drawers taps and dies are worth about the same as the Mig and compressor.
Do not leave good measuring tools in the garage unless full time heated. Mine are kept in my sock drawer at home..:)
Fact of life. In my opinion get machine work done. They have all the trick tools that cost thousands. The reason I call them trick tools is even good ones in the wrong hands can trick you. One hour of a good machinists time is worth its weight in gold. They are getting few and far between. Everybody wants to be a Lawyer?
Got an old Mic and can't read between the lines? Sort of like a slide rule? Dying art.
Buying a few good measure tools lets you keep the the close factory machining honest. Before you spend a week assembling.
Jerry, If you want to spend more than $50.00 for a dial indicator, go for it. I agree MITITOYO is a fine instrument that machinists must use to measure very tight tolerences. In this application, I do not care if the instrumnet is 50 or 150 dollars. Just the act of using a pry bar (many times) to move the crank backwards and taking serveral readings will introduce an error of at least +/- 1 mil. Take the rad out and "hammer" the crank backwards will give less error.
Bill, all I did to answer Jerrys' question was do a GOOGLE and pick the first on the list. He now knows what to buy. I will say this: Jerry go for .0001 accuracy. Your accuracy will be better/closer.
OK, for Don Ks sake, I shall get back on topic.
I got the following response from Advanced Performance Technologies (APT) http://aptfast.com/
At this site go to "click here for APT parts" top left corner of page.
The VP2 are $89.00 and yes we have them they are county/king bearings and are now the standard replacement for vanderbilt"( This Lori not me???) "that are no longer available. The A material is also in stock they sell for $51.00 just let me know what you would like and we can ship right away. Best Regards Lori----- Original Message ----- "
NOTE: The "A" material..aluminium??? I guess.
I am not sure why they use the VP2 designation on the bearings as this was a Vandervell designation???
JAM engineering does not do bearings at (at least the JAM I GOOGLED).
I also got the following response from a distributor her in Toronto:
"There are no vandervell bearings and haven't been for many years unless they are old stock. I have some for TR7 but that is all.
I am not aware of any failures with other types. We only stock AE brand for TR5-6, however I am not sure how long that will be. I currently have all sizes in AE brand. County, is the other brand currently available, in a crappy white box. We sell quite a number of them for other applications where AE brand is no longer available such as Austin Healey. We have never had a failure due to the bearing quality, problems usually are installation problems etc."
So I now have, County, AE, APT, King, and Clevite (thanks Rick O, Clevite seems to be the choice here). Just did a GOOGLE and AE and Clevite are one and the same...A Dana Corp. company.
A good read is : http://www.aa1car.com/library/ar797.htm
Also, do a simple GOOGLE on :Clevite engine bearings" The world is at our finger tips:)
It appears that DANA ( or Clevite) both the same now anyway, bought out Vandervell so one can say that Vandervell bearings are STILL avaialble; I quote from
The V-series are a recent addition to the high performance bearings in the Clevite 77® line. These parts essentially duplicate the former Vandervell parts under the Clevite 77® part numbering system. (Same core part number as standard passenger car parts but with a suffix letter "V"). "
In this same article is the statement:"All V Series main sets use a single piece thrust bearing rather than the former Vandervell assembled type of construction." Can someone explain what this means please.
King Bearings are of the type: 2 layer "Alecular" (aluminium).http://www.kingbearings.com/advantages.html
I could not find anything on Country brand.
I hope this thread helps others in selecting the correct bearings for the lower end. I have good e-mails out looking for part numbers. Will let you know.
|Ok so the recommended resolution is .0001". Now what should I look for in range values. I found a grizzly that has a resolution of .0001 with a range of .05". Is this acceptable. Thanks in advance for helping out a newbie to this type work.|
|Yes thats OK can't think of anything on a car that needs more than .05.|
Rick I think you put in AA1car twice could you repost with link to the V-series?
|OK I gonna ask a question to might seem strange to some of you but here goes. Suppose I wanna drop the oil pan and replace the thrust washers just for my own sanity.|
So I drop the pan in order to remove the old washers. Now, how can I figure out what thickness washers I would need? Do I still need a dial indicator or is there some other way I figure out the thickness I need w/o buying the dial indicator? I'm trying to save the cost of the guage if at all possible. That would make the wife very happy. Feeler guages?? If not then I will have to be extra nice to here :-) and convince her that this is a needed tool and not a toy. Well anyways thanks Bill and Rick for having patience with a new TR6 mechnic. I redid the whole interior and have just finished rebuilding the front suspension, so I am learning little by little.
73 White TR6
|If your dropping the pan you can use a feeler gauge between crankshaft and thrust washer. Whats a pan gasket worth these days?|
Do you have lots of end play? Whats the symptom?
|No symptons that I'm aware of Bill. Don't know how much end play I have as I don't have a dial indicator. Is there any special noises, etc that would let me know I have a problem. Just thought that I would play it safe and replace them. I know the engine has been rebuilt but not sure of how much mileage since the rebuild. A pan gasket goes for about 6 bucks plus shipping. Don't really want to drop pan but I know of no other way of telling how worn they are since I don't have the gauge.|
|JW-Buy the dial indicator. Even the el cheapo from Harbor Freight is better than nothing, better yet spring for a higher quality one. You will find many other applications for it besides the thrust washers. Don't be afraid to invest money in tools that will last a life time, unlike some things that spouses buy that have to be replaced next year because they are out of style. I will now step down from my soap box.|
|Rick- How did I get involved in this?|
Look at your feeler gauges. Check the .004 range. Pretty slim right? Grab the .010 way more realistic and thats as a starting point? Still slim.
Never seen anyone get 4 thou on any engine. Yes it can be done if you have a lathe and a whack of thrust bearings.
So the ideal is .004 to .008. That means if you pull from the center of the fan so you don't break blades...:) Towards the back of the car hold your hand on the fan have someone step on the clutch.
Did you feel it move?
If its close to perfect with cold oil not likely.
If its OK you might feel just a tic.
If it gives your hand a push drop the pan.
Now if you want advice on surviving toys tools and the wife. Let me know. May start a help line...:)
I usually have several car toys at the same time so I rent a shop $200 a month. My wife does not like smelly old cars around the flowers. Or compressor running when she knits.
I have 4 kids and 6 grandkids by the 2 eldest. Youngest daughter is in Med school and getting married in B.C this spring. Youngest son in 2nd year University up in northern Ontario. Studying Liquids/forms/and social interaction. Simply put his major is beer/broads/and partying. I don't have a financial drain its more of a flush.
Does your situation look any brighter now?
If your serious about working on your car. Buy the tool you need. One at a time good ones. Wait and save for them! Go to industrial auctions once you know what your looking for. Many years ago I wrecked or mediocred a lot of stuff using poor or not the right tools. Poor economics. The part is often worth more than the tool. Good tools taken care of will last forever and an excellent investment. Ask your insurance agent or any burglar? Snap-ons way more popular than diamonds with that crowd.
|That should read pull back on the fan center as hard as you can. Then have someone step on the clutch. Try to sense any movement. Do it a few times just to make sure.|
I'm on your soapbox Berry I can't agree more. But after my last comment on breadmakers I'm now getting fresh bread. Bonus!
|Jerry--You really need a gauge for 2 reasons: to estimate the end float and to mic the thickness of your rear TW to figure out what thickness TW to buy. FOr example, if your current endfloat is 0.015" and you ultimately want an endfloat of 0.005", then you'll have to add 0.015 - 0.005 = 0.010" to the thickness of the rear TW. Remove the rear TW and mic its thickness. If your current rear TW is 0.090" thick, then you'll need a new rear TW that is 0.090 + 0.010 = 0.100" thick to make up the difference. The front TW should remain the same thickness since it does not wear . . . or shouldn't if all is normal.|
I went through this procedure a year ago when I R&R'd with bronze TW's. 4K miles later, my endfloat remains spot-on.
|In case anyone missed the link Rick mentions at the top of this page is a good site about those pesky thrust washers. Last spring I was at Bill's shop and he should me what can happen when they fail...not a pretty sight ! I did the test that Bill mentions on my car at 60,000 and also used a magnetic dial gauge and found I had no real free play but since I was replacing the oil pump I decided to do the bearings as well and then to look at the thrust washers. The one at the front was great and the one closest to the transmission had a tiny bit missing so I ordered a new one from Scott the same thickness as what I took out.I was impressed with the new one as not only the proper thickness but it was slightly wider in surface area which helps spread the "load" I had no problem removing or replacing them...just have a clean hands !!|
I was happy with the price and service.
I just checked my play again and it has not changed in 3500 miles
|Charlie Ballard '75 TR6|
|One more trip to the soap box-I think that a dial indicator reading in .0001" is overkill, that kind of accuracy would never be needed on anything done on a TR at home. My humble opinion would be one graduated in .001", a range of 1", a magnetic base, and a clamp. A 0-1" micrometer and a 6" dial caliper should round out the collection of measuring tools needed. You might enjoy a catalog from www.travers.com for a complete selection of anything related to measuring and machine tools.|
Bills' and My last little "tif" got you upset. You said "you guys are driving me crazy"...at least that what I think you said...cannot remember the thread title but was very recent. Got CRS ya know...I think?
Jerry, as Bill says .05" is plenty. If you have any reading close to .05" of play..MAN! stop driving your 6 immediately ( sorry Bill I know this is your soap box I am on:).
Jerry congrats on doing the interiour. I bet she looks just fine. If you can find out what was done at the rebuild time, this would help you. Talk to the PO and see if you can get the name of the guy who did the rebuild..ask him what he did. A written work order is the best proof.
UMMMM...yes....I used it twice and am trying to figure out why...D*** CRS. The first I think was for a good read and the point..quote "Larry Erickson of Crankshaft Rebuilders in Sandford, FL, says is company sells about 100,000 crankshaft kits annually primarily to retailers. "We use Federal-Mogul, AE Clevite, ACL, King and Enginetech bearings. In most cases, we would rather go with a copper/lead bearing because it is more forgiving in a dirty environment. But we’re also using a lot of aluminum bearing these days, too." This quote says AE Clevite...AE and Clevite are one and the same.
Sorry, the second one should have been this one for V Series:
It is interesting doing a little "surf sluthing"
This you WILL find interesting:
Scroll down till you see DANA and look who is mentioned along with DANA...HMMM the plot thickens.
When at this link do a search on "Glacier Vandervell Bearings" Talk about going around in circles!!
My head is spinning!! who owns who... who is who!!
Rick O, I quote you:( I know, not your written stuff)" This info is from the May 2004 Detroit Triumphs newsletter; lacking genuine Vandervell's, you should consider Clevite and never use Glacier. " Intersting point here is that one of Dana/Glacier/Vandervell/Clevite offices is in Farmington Hills..a burb of Detroit!!
A little more interesting stuff is I said above that AE and Clevite where one in the same( see link above). Well I have been told this is not the case but AE is Federal-Mogul and they are in chapter 11. Well do a simple google of AE Glacier and you get DANA but also look at www.partsamerica.com This is Advanced Auto Parts and if you put in your ZIP ( I just picked any old number) and then enter the bearings and car and you will see that they offer AE Clevite (DANA Corp. Clevite77) bearings. Mains P.N. MS1112P $91.00/set and Rods P.N. CB982P $13.00 each it looks like. The Rod bearings look like they are aluminium though. Will go back to DANA and find out. I have done a considerable bit more investigating but leave it at that.
Berry .0001 I do not think is overkill. I purchased a simple digital vernier caliper and discovered that it had .001 accuracy. I will never use it. When I went to use it My first question (and my last) was " that reading I just took..was it .125(+.0009)"? The potential for 1 MIL error is to high. Besides I do not think it will be much more expensive to have .0001 accuracy.
|Rick- Things a little slow at work?|
For about another 4 days:)
|Rick-I am too much of a dinosaur to trust digital calipers, prefering the dial type, which are graduated in .001". Convenient, but not a substitute for a micrometer. Either one allows interpolation between graduations.|
Bill-Bread machines didn't cross my mind when I made the remark about spousal spending. Thinking more along the lines of interior decorating. Four kids and 1 in med school? You should have plenty of help in your declining years-or they might bring you to Oregon where physician assisted sucicide is legal.
|Rick. This has been a very interesting Thread, I never got the same response when I posted mine, I am still searching for the invoice.I am having a whale of a time now that my is running again. I am located on the east coast in Stuart, It would be great if we could meet up in January. Clive|
I replaced my "fancy" .001" digital with a dial....0001". My main reason why I went with dial is because it sits in the tool chest out in the garage. As you can appreciate, does not get used every day and those little batteries tend to be expensive not to mention that the battery WILL be dead when you want to use it:) Berry, in my line of work, I deal with MICRON measurements. For me 1 MIL is a VERY big thing:) I have customers with tolerences of 3 Micrometers (=3MICRONS=3um). FYI 25.4um=.001" 3um=.000012"...a little over 1/10th of a tho.
"Either one allows interpolation between graduations" yes, I will agree with that Berry. A digital
(if .001") will not. Of topic but interesting stuff.
Now I know where to send my mother-in-law...OOOOOO bad Rick!
Hay Clive, You are not very far from John B. You 2 need to get together and compare rides not to mention looking cool going down the road together. Not likely that I will get across the "peninsula". Will be too busy with seeing the sights,walking the beach,eating FRESH sea food, and emptying a few brown bottles. Not the best time to go to FL. but the trip has a purpose. When you find the invoice let me know please. My search for bearings has been interesting:)
|Rick-Those are pretty impressive numbers, but without beating the subject to death, (I think we are already there)a rack&pinion dial caliper graduated in .001 is adequate for all home shop use. In fact, my Travers tool catalog doesn't even list a dial caliper with less than .001. grad. Throw in a 0-1" mike (with or without a .0001" vernier), and a dial indicator with 1" travel, and the measuring bases are covered in my humble opinion. Total cost-about $100. Amen.|
Yup we beat her up pretty good...Amen.
Now to resolve this issue about bearings and what to use.
|Boy I guess I opened a can of worms when I asked about what kind of guage I needed to check my thrust washers. Sorry for messing up the thread and thanks to all those who responded with answers. |
|Jerry- On this site that can doesn't have to be very big or opennedvery far|
That big long "key" at the bottom of your key board is the space bar:) ttttttttt
Jerry, you better go out and buy one or the goose will fly over your 6 next summer:) No mess up...typical having more than one subject per thread. All in fun.
British Parts Northwest sells a bearing made for them by King and sold through County brand and are supposed to be made to the exact spec of the vandervell vp2's. They are made by King and are a direct replacement for the vandervel bearing on the TR engines. Give them a call and talk to Greg or Leighton and they will fill you in on these specially made bearings. I bought them but haven't finished my engine yet. They look to be very high quality.
|These bearings seem to be the best available and I have had no problems, and have just passed the 5000 mile rebuild with 180 BHP Clive|
What was your oil pressure before the rebuild? What did your old bearings look like?
My oil pressure was decent cold but as soon as the engine got hot it would drop to around 25 PSI while running around 2000 RPM and at idle was lucky if I got 10 PSI. And I was using 20W-50 oil.
The bearings I took out might be the original (100,000 + miles) as they are Vandervell standard size. All of the bearings were worn through to the copper. A couple of shells showed traces of the top lead layer. a few of the rod bearing had pretty deep scores in them and the crank required .010 grind to clean up the scores in it both main and rod.
Hopefully my oil pressure will greatly improve with this rebuild. I had the engine shop do a clearance check for the main and rod bearings and they are well within range.
After your rebuild did you go right to 10W-50? Or did you use a lower viscosity?
I have a 1973 TR6. Keeping it all stock. No engine mods.
|There are a few sets of vandervell bearings on ebay at the moment. |
|My oil pressure was only 40 psi when hot at about 2500 rpm and virtually zero at idle before the rebuild I have replaced the oil pump togeather with the crank regrind and now see 80 psi on a cold start and 65psi when running She idles at about 40 and I am Mobil 1 15/50 and have converted to vertical screw-on filter, Clive|
HP from Michigan, thank you for the lead to British parts Northwest.
Here is my query to them and their reply:
"What you read about is the standard King bearings. The tri-metal bearings have
a different make up. I've misplaced my notes and King is closed until the
third of January and I can get the different percentages of the metals. These
are an exact copy of the VP2 material that was made for us in conjuction with
another company in the UK. If you need any further information please feel
free to let us know.
British Parts Northwest
Quoting "Richard J. Crawford & Associates" <rjcassoc@ATlynxDOT.org>:
> I am currently in need of lower end bearings (Mains and Rods) on a 1971 Triumph TR6.
> I have done considerable WWW searching on Vandervell VP2 bearings and (as you know) are no longer available. I have been told that you sell the
> County/King brand and that they are of the VP quality.
> I am not sure why I was told County/King as they do not appear to be the same
> Also I quote from the KING web site:"King's bearing uses just two layers, a
> high strength steel backing plus a bonded layer of "Alecular" bearing material .012" - .015" thick.
> Alecular material is used exclusively by King. It is an alloy of aluminum, tin, copper and several other elements. Because it is an alloy, it maintains
> its properties throughout its entire depth, delivering consistent and
> reliable performance."
> This does not appear to be of the VP-2 quality?????
> I was unable to find a County brand web site.
> Could you please explain to me what you sell as good quality engine bearings
> Thank you
> Rick Crawford
Well it appears that the Vandervell bearings are available. If you go to their web site you will see that the price for the bearings is also reasonable. It appears that anyone selling KING bearings also sells the KING VP-2 bearing quality ones. So be sure you order the VP-2 ones if talking to a supplier of KING bearings.
Thanks for input people...hope this thread helps someone else in the future.
Glad you got in touch with British Parts Northwest. They have a very good reputation among british car owners. I was told about them through the Triumph Club I am in.
Let us know when Leighton gets back to you with the details. I didn't ask them for the metal type and content but I did ask them if other people have had good success with them and they said many people had. They sell them as a "heavy duty" Tri-metal bearing alternative and describe them as a copy of the original VP2.
I have sent Leighton an e-mail asking for more info.
I am in FL. till 20th of Jan. so you chaps will have to wait for me to post back. Hopeing to meet up with John and Clive while down there.
Happy new year every one!
Here is the reply I got on the bearings.
These are: (I quote) " What you read about is the standard King bearings. The tri-metal bearings have
a different make up. I've misplaced my notes and King is closed until the third of January and I can get the different percentages of the metals. These
are an exact copy of the VP2 material that was made for us in conjuction with another company in the UK. If you need any further information please feel free to let us know."
Here is the reply after January:
"Sorry for the delay. Here is the make up of the bearings. They have a steel
back on them, the bearing material has a make up of 74.5% Cu, 21% Pb and 4.5%
Sn, the SAE # is 794. Then the bearings have an overlay of 85% Pb, 12% Sn and
3% Cu on a Ni barrier. Hope this helps out, if you need anything else please
feel free to let me know.
British Parts Northwest
It appears that they are VP2 bearings but am not a metalugist. Anyone comments on thesae bearings are welcome.
This thread was discussed between 28/11/2004 and 21/01/2005
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