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Triumph TR6 - Oil seal on differential
|I had to take the diff out in order to change the front and rear rubber mountings. Now I am there I will also have a go at a leaking right axle oil seal. |
Yes, I have read all the threads in the archive and realize its not an easy job. I do however not want to reinstall the diff with a leaking seal. I found a workshop that will help me separate the flange from the shaft, they have done this type of repairs before.
Can I expect difficulties reassembling the shaft, ball race and flange or is the reverse operation straight forward. How tight should the castle shaft nut be tightened, there is no indication in the manual.
The oil seal on the left axle is ok, is it recommended changing this seal also, I guess it has done the same mileage as the right one, or is it wise not to touch whilst still in good order.
Would appreciate some advice.
First off working on your car on Christmas Day is great. I was told to stay home dress up, shut up about cars and be bored by the relatives. Good ones into cars couldn't make it this year.
This is my opinion only. If you have a very small bit of leakage and no noise leave it. Check your Diff. mount studs for measure. Passenger side front is most suspect. If there OK replace mounts and you may find your oil leak goes away or stays minor forever.
If it must be taken apart have it done by someone total job that can prove they have done this many times before with satisfied customers. Give me phone numbers of satisfied customers.. And provide at least 90 days warranty if not a year.
I have never done a TR diff. but the older GM is a bit the same. Getting it all to work centered, footprinted and preloaded is an art that comes from experience. New specs are not that relevant. I hated a clunk I had in an old truck years ago took it into the top tranny shop around and the idiot messed it royaly. They tried twice then put in a used one that clanked as bad.
Was advised by a couple of good old boys to take it to Old John. Take a case of beer puts him in a good mood. Him and his wife are both total alcoholics and I'm not too sure of the dog? Laid on his back on cardboard for 4 hours under the truck. His wife got him wrenches shims rags and beer and reefed on wheels. 8am to about 12 noon. He drank 7 beers took $90 bucks cash. I left the 24 beer $25 at that time. $115. job done. Perfect running diff. for the 4 years I had that truck. First job cost me $450 junk.
I prefer to DIY myself and it can be done with patience. But hook up E-mail with one of the guys who have completed it.
Thanks for your encouraging response.
I manage to slip into the garage between the soup and the goose to loosen some bolds and get some work done. Dirty hands will not show by candlelights Éļ
To get back to my leaking oil seal. If I look at the drawings in the Repair Operation Manual and the instruction that goes with it looks pretty straightforward. After removing the four bolts holding the flange, one should be able to withdraw the shaft engaged in the sungear. There should be no need to disassemble the diff at all. The link to the sungear is made through splines on the shaft engaging the crown wheel.
The reverse process should, as far as I can judge, not deliver any alignment problems.
I located a workshop who will separate the shaft/flange with a 60 ton press.
To re-assemble the shaft, ball race, key and flange might give some problems to get everything back in the same position. Some previous threads suggest to count the turns to release the castle nut and return it to the same position whilst assembling.
I have new poly mountings at hand, all chassis reinforcements are in place. I removed all rust from the mountings and the diff housing and painted the iron casting parts in black. It is sitting on the bench nice and shinny looking like new °K°K accept for this bl°K leaking seal.
You convinced me to stay away from the seal on the other axle. I am still tempted to count my Christmas blessings and go for leaking one.
|The character set of my Double Dutch computer is messing with me. The last alinea should read:|
It is sitting on the bench nice and shinny looking like new ..... accept for this bl... leaking seal.
When my right seal was leaking I mean "pouring" I removed the diff ( did you see my tip on diff removal ?) and took it to a mechanic friend who put it on his bench, pried out both seals (hard work for a few mins with no damage) ..I swore the new ones would not fit but he said they would..and they did ...not a leak since.
Don't buy the leather type..I tried that and it leaked also.
I thought I pulled all info out of the archive related to the diff but missed somehow your tip, I will have a look again.
To take the diff out I shaped a front and end board to follow the profile of the diff casing and fixed them to a small beam. I lowered the diff with a hydraulic crick supporting the beam. It was relatively easy to balance the diff on its way down. The support proved also to be handy on the bench handling the casting.
My seal is dripping not pouring, but a spoon a day is still quit a lot. I will bring the shaft to this workshop next Saturday; so that will be next year !
I will report the result.
Do I understand you replaced both left & right seals in the one operation ? This would mean you gave preference to replace a non-leaking seal whilst the diff was out.
As I said have not done a TR6 diff. rebuild. Spoon a day is a bit.
Your mention of a castle nut made me think your going for the whole rebuild. The only castle nut I know of on that unit is the crownwheel/pinion. Far as I know rest are standard or nylocs? Watch for the different axle lengths.
You should be OK and if your at it might as well do both while its out. Other than the 60 ton press business should be straight foreward.
I checked into a company a while back called Nitro-Fit. They instant freeze the shaft to release bearings and flanges. Because of $100 cost to test the TR 60 ton removal problem. I didn't go any further. Mine don't leak yet? Fellow was confident after freeze he would remove taper with 2 gentle hammer taps? No damage. Send me a $100 bucks and I will let you know if he was correct...:) 1 or 2 parts in the blast are same cost.
Inner driving flange to inner axle is 100-110 FT, Lbs or 13.83 to 15.21 KG. by the book.
The left and right shafts both have castle nuts and are secured with a splitpen. The nut on the prop shaft has double the number of crennelles and is secured by a twisted wire. I do not intent a total rebuild.
Thanks for the torque info.
After releasing the four bolds hoding the flange one shaft came out quit easy. For some reason the other one won't let go yet. I am reluctant to bash it.
Since the diff was out and needed a new seal and my friend is so good at it and the labour was free !
I shared some rum with him after !!
I replaced the other as well..they only cost $10 each Cnd.
I'll e-mail the tip in case you can't find it
|Eric-At the risk of fixing something that isn't broke, I would suggest replacing the pinion seal while the diff is out. Unless you have enjoyed the experience of removing&replacing it so much that you are looking forward to doing it again. If it isn't leaking now, it probably will in the near future. Since you have the castle nut and locking wire on the pinion, that is a pretty sure sign of the solid spacer and should not cause any problems in re-torquing. Removing the pinion seal usually involves mangling it with a screw driver or chisel, but replacement is easy. Also, I have found (the hard way) that the replacement neopreme seal available from bearing suppliers or some auto part stores (CR 15207), is less likely to leak than the original leather type. |
I have both shafts out and ready to have the flanges pressed of. I followed the Repair Operation Manual 51.10.02 instructions (By the way I do not understand why some of you call this "the Bentley" manual, my TR is still a Triumph and Bentley was a Rolls Royce brand!)
I can not find any instruction on replacing the pinion seal. From the drawings it looks like the flange is on splines on the main axle. So one should not need specific tools to remove the pinion flange. Correct ?
Is it then possible to remove the seal without disassembling the main shaft ? What about the outer bearing, should it come out also ?
To replace the castle nut, I understood from previous threads, the trick is to count the number of turns and replace it at exactly the same position.
If it can be done without taking the main assembly apart I will replace the pinion seal as well.
Robert Bentley is the publisher..nothing to do with the Bentley cars...they publish automotive books for Tr's, MG's, Jags etc
You'll want to mark the nut and the differential. Then tighten to realign the marks when you put it back together.
That's how I do it anyway.
|Eric-The pinion tail shaft bearing (or outer bearing will stay on the pinion shank as it is a light press fit. The pinion flange should come off with a few whacks with a mallet, if you don't have a puller. Getting the old seal out chiseling out a section before removing the rest of the seal with a seal hook and sliding hammer. I think most people develop their own technique with whatever tools are available. The only other tool needed is something to hold the flange while removing and replacing the nut. One last thought, check the area on the pinion flange that the seal contacts. Make sure it is smooth and not grooved. It is possible to drive the seal slightly deeper to ride on a different area. If you would like, I can scan an article from an old 6 pack newsletter on changing the seal.|
I would appreciate the scan of the artical in my mail. I could not find an instruction in the manual for this seal. I found however some directions on replacing the pinion seal of the A-OD unit. The construction looks very much the same as the one on the diff.
My TR manual is published by British Leyland. I believe it is a reprint of the official document. It has a brown cover an ISBN number and the original factory publication number. I can find no reference to Robert Bentley publishers. I guess your manual is a US reprint.
|Just an update top share with you the present status of my diff oilseal repair.|
I had the flanges of both axles pressed of by a TR expert workshop. The press was equipped with a nice bush with a perfect fit to support the flange. To protect the axle end, we mounted the original castle nut flush with the axle end.
The first one gave way with 60 tonís of pressure applied. The second one (the left-hand longer shaft) refused to let go. With 80 tonís of pressure the thread of the nut appeared not to be totally flush with the axle end. With a loud bang the thread of the axle was teared up, it just snatched right off across the total height of the nut. Clearly the axle is a wright off. I assure you that it was an IMPRESSIVE and even scary sight to have so much force applied. With the axle end shot we went less careful and with the next 80 tonís also this axle parted from its flange.
Being with a TR specialist a replacement axle was quickly dug up; it set me back 20 Euro, which seemed a fair price.
To replace the seals was a piece of cake. The old seals fell apart when toughed and could easily be driven out the flanges. The flange it self was not worn or showed any traces of an edge.
The propshaft seal was a totally different story. This seal was not leaking but with the diff on the bench I decided to have a go at it. I carefully marked the castle nut in relation to its position on the main shaft.
With the help of Berryís suggested tools (4x4 pine) I managed to get the castle nut of. The flange came of very easy; it nearly dropped from the axle end. The flange shaft is however badly grooved by the pinion seal. The seal was quit difficult to get out of main casting, To my surprise it still was a leather type, it was totally dried out, it worn out the flange, but did not leak!
The new pinion seal is a rubber type; I positioned it in a way that it will not ride on the marked part of the flange. I just hope it will not leak. I replaced the flange and tightened the castle nut to go back in exactly the same position I have found it. My guess is this should not put any additional pressure on the collapsible spacer inside.
The diff is ready to be joined with the car again. Total cost about 50 Euro/US$.
Before I do I will have a look at the splines and U-joints now I am there.
Thank you all for the helpful advises
This thread was discussed between 25/12/2003 and 08/01/2004
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