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Triumph TR6 - OIL SLUDGE

Well my first TR6 is home and in the garage. 1500 kilometers $400 in gas and the worse food I have ever had but we are safe and happy.
Now the fun starts..........
I have started to check and change all the fluids in the car. For some reason I have a white sludge in the oil........it is even on the dip stick, that is as far as I checked.....do I have a major problem? exhaust is white but the engine seems to run well.

Gord

GL Gordon

Gord...could be. Sounds like a head gasket leaking coolent into the crankcase. May be minor, may not! Let's us know how it turns out.
db
Doug Baker

Gord
I hope you took some pictures of the adventure!
Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the land of deep pockets and DPOs. Like I said, get lots of pictures of what you do because some day you will look back on them and wounder if you where crazy back then. Just kiddin'. They will be good memories.
Sorry but tending to lean to what Doug says. I would say it is a little more serious though. Engines do not run well using antifreeze as an engine lubricant. The white smoke out the pipe also says head gasket leak. It is also not necessarily a good time to do a compression check.
Did you notice if the coolant level went down in the rad?

A good way of looking at this Gord is that a valve job was probably in order anyway so now is the time to get it done.

Rick

The attached picture was taken back in 1999. I finished her in 2001.



Rick Crawford

Hello,

I agree for a leaking head gasket. It is mandatory to check head flatness. Very often it needs to be plane(shave). It is not an expensive jod, but you have to remove valves. A good idea to check if all clearances( valves, v-guides and seats) are acceptable.

Cheers,

J.G.C.
J. G. Catford

Gordon,
It's possible you have a head gasket failure. It's also possible that since it's pretty cold out, and particularly if the engine has only been run for short periods, that it could just be condensation.

Check your coolant level, if low you may have a leak. Don't just check the overflow bottle, check the radiator too. Pull your spark plugs and shine a flashlight (a "Bend-A-Light" works great for this) into the bores. If any of your piston tops are shiny aluminum, you're leaking into the bore(s).

Check to make sure your crankcase breather is not clogged.

In any case, change your oil and filter before running it again.

Let us know what you find.
Tom
Tom Sotomayor

Gordon,
Forgot to mention, congratulations - welcome to the insanity! ;o)

Tom
Tom Sotomayor

Gordon,
What the year of manufacture and commission number for your new -6?
db
Doug Baker

Doug
74....CF18177U

Gord
GL Gordon

Dang...another 74.
Rick Crawford

Woo Hoo!
....and Welcome!

Rod
Rod Nichols

Hi Gord,
If the previous owner had TOO much oil in the engine that can cause the oil to foam and turn into a sludge like substance...I'd change the oil / filter and give 'er a good run and see if the symtons re-appear.
Monitor your coolant level over a few days and if it drops to the point your always adding some then you may have a leaky head gasket..
Cheers

Charlie
Charlie B.

Welcome Gord.

I can't offer anything new to your dilemma. The group has captured the possibilities. Good luck and welcome to TR6 ownership.

Mike
Michael Petryschuk

Welcome Gord,

You've chosen the right car and you've come to the right place for great information and advice...and some of it about TR6's!!!

Mike
'73 Tr6
Mike Calhoun

Charlie and Tom
Both possibilities. The car was run for a short while in the cold when I did the test drive and then shut down. The oil level was also high. I figure the previous owner probably had it running and filled the oil prior to my visit.
Unfortunately I can't get the car out to do any proper testing. I am in the middle of winter here. Any winter tips would be helpful. In the meantime I am just cleaning things up until I can really get out.


By the way thanks to all for the welcome

Gordon
GL Gordon

Gordon
Winter things to do:
First add heat to your garage and turn on some good tunes.
1: Pull all wheels off and check brakes...replace as necessary. You gotta do this for inspection anyway. THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT SYSTEM IN THE CAR!
2: Drain fluid from both hydraulic systems. Replace and bleed both systems. Do not put synthetic (DOT5) brake fluid back in it if it had DOT4 in it.
3: Grease all fittings. Do this when the wheels are off.
4: You might want to also grease the front wheel bearings. This is a little more work. The rear hubs are a sealed unit..make no attempt to disassemble.
5: Obviously change oil and new filter.
6: Change fuel filter. Pinch rubber line back at bottom of fuel tank on drivers side so as to stop gas flow.
7: Operate every electrical system and make sure it works. The BIGGEST problem with a faulty electrical system in a LBC is grounding problem.
8: look though CDII and read up on stuff.
9: The second most important thing to do...have fun.
Rickc
This list probably can be added to.


Rick Crawford

Hey Guys
Ok the winter list provided has been completed along with a few things like seat belt overhaul and suspension checkup.
Now back to the sludge. I pulled off the sump with no problem and although it was dirty there were no parts in it.Yahoo. No other sludge except for a bit on the bottom of the sump.
I did find that the crankshaft has some rather disturbing wear (like a wave pattern) at the position of connecting rod #2 only. You can feel it with your finger.
I searched the archives to no avail.
Question 1 Is this a thrust washer issue?
Question 2 If so can I save myself from an engine rebuilt this year? Next year would suit me better.

Gordon
GL Gordon

Gordon
WOW that was fast. But you must have been working on them already. Sounds like you have been bitten and have the TR6 bug.

I do not think this is a thrust washer issue. You say ONLY #2 so the others must be OK. Possibly a plugged oil passage to that bearing. Have you looked at one of the mains?
when you looked at #2 did the bearing itself look scored?
Since you have the pan off it would be a good idea to check end play. You obviously need a dial gauge and this is a very simple procedure. As you can appreciate Gordon, thrust washers are important to this engine and definitely wear out. They are very easy to change with crank still in the engine/ engine still in the car. Bearings can be done with engine still in the car also. You need to measure end float before removal. Also you want to get Scott Helm's thrust washers.
Question 2. I think you can get away without an engine rebuild this year. I would definitely replace the thrust washers if too much end float though. This is going to be a "shake down" summer for you and I do not think you plan to drive to Vancouver and back.
Enjoy the car for a summer then do more work on it over the winter.
Rickc
Rick Crawford

Actually what is scored is the counter balance but only on one position of the crankshaft.
I wish I could explain the score pattern. The best I can tell you is that it resembles a stringer used for building steps or a wave pattern with sharp angles. It is hard measure but the steps are about .020 in hieght

I will check the connecting rod tonight. Why would this happen. There does not seem to be an excessive amount of play at the bearing end although there is some. I will also check the end float tonight.
You are quite right Vancouver is not in the plans.........

Gordon
GL Gordon

Gordon
OK I think I understand where you are talking (see JPG). It almost sounds like it is either scribed onto the counter balance or it was a flaw in the casting mold. I can not see it coming from the rotating connecting rod in a stair step pattern. I do not think I would worry about it. If you see no marks on the connecting rod (a little dis assembly required here) then forget about it. there has to be a little play but is the play enough that the rod makes contact with the crank?
I would be more concerned about end float Gordon.
Rickc

Rick Crawford

Gordon,
If the scoring in the counterbalance looks like "cross hatching" that was formed during manufacture of the crankshaft and is perfectly normal.

I think we all assumed when you said scoring of the crankshaft, we thought you were talking about the journal that the rod bearing actually rides on. If those are smooth, and the bearing surfaces are gray, you're fine. If the bearings are starting to show copper, they are worn out and need to be replaced.

Just to clarify, end float of the crankshaft is measured as relative axial movement between the crankshaft and cylinder block.

My guess is you'll be good to go and don't need any major repair for now.

Tom
Tom Sotomayor

Gordon,
I think Tom came up with the answer on your stair steps. Yes, I thought the journal.
Just out of curiosity, what does the odometer say?
Tom, I am sure you will agree that it does not take much to pull a cap off to take a look at the bearings and it sure is simple to measure end float which should be between .006" and .008". You have the pan off so go ahead and have a look and take your end float measurement. Sure will not do any harm:) Your thrust washers are pretty critical and are easily changed with just the oil pan off. Well..not as easy as if it was on an engine stand but sure beats pulling the engine out.
Rickc
Rick Crawford

Rick,
Yep, in full agreement with you.

Gordon,
If the pan is off, pull as many bearing caps as you can, one at a time, to determine condition. Check the crank endfloat, then remove and examine the thrust washers. Record the values for all of the bearings and thrust washers (the size is stamped next to the part number on the backside). Pull the oil pump too and check the rotor clearances as outlined in the workshop manual. It's an easy way to determine what you have without doing a full tear down. If anything is amiss, replace the bearing(s) now - it's cheap insurance!

One thing I don't see mentioned often is to NOT sit at a stop sign or traffic light with the clutch pedal pushed in. This applies direct axial pressure to the flywheel / crankshaft and any forward movement is resisted by the thrust washers. Since the thrust washers don't cover 360 degrees (they only cover half - 180 degrees), the bearings can't build up a hydro-dynamic oil film. The oil film gets scraped away by the sharp edge of the thrust washer, so you end up with metal to metal contact.

So, you end up with two options -
1. Modify the engine to accept a 360 degree thrust washer ($$$$).
2. Keep your foot off of the clutch pedal unless changing gears AND keep an eye on your crankshaft end float!

I'm actually playing around with option #1 since I have a spare engine (with a muched block and crank that would be junk otherwise - it had .030+ endfloat with stock thrust washers!) and have access to a lathe and mill in my shop. The bits are all done, it just needs to be assembled and put in my 6.

Of course I need to install the A type OD at the same time, but that needs a full rebuild (since the tranny's DPO cracked the adapter plate and ran it for a LONG time with NO oil AND got into an accident and broke a lot of teeth off the constant speed gears). :o(

Tom

Tom Sotomayor

Tom
Good point on clutch thing at traffic lights. I some times get a "honk" from the guy behind me as I am just not fast enough off the line for his liking:)

"SORRY...GOTTA PUT HER IN GEAR!!!"

When I was a kid I had my brothers MG Midget out and at a traffic light a big dump truck pulled up behind me. Light changed...I put her in gear..BANG! The stupid idiot was so close behind me he forgot (could not see me) I was there and took off. My brother was not pleased.
I do not know how guys drive a TR6 without OD. Makes it so much nicer at cruising speed.
Rick
Rick Crawford

RICK
Your JPG shows the exact location of the scoring. I am waiting for the gauge to arrive to measure the end float. I have not had time to check anything else yet. I think I found the problem. According to the JPG my engine is mounted upside down...........


Tom
I have printed out the thread and will be working on all the suggestions you guys have provided

Thanks I have a car load of info now.

Gordon
GL Gordon

Gordon
Another case of DPO.......:)



Scoring there has to have come from manufacturing and is no problem.

Rickc
Rick Crawford

This thread was discussed between 19/02/2008 and 18/03/2008

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