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Triumph TR6 - Reverse Gear problem

To you tranny experts out there.

First, I knew I should not have said anything mean to the mistress when she threw her temper tantrum:)

Today when out and stopped, started her up and tried to go into reverse. Well if you have ever yelled at a guy "grind me a pound". Hopeless to attemp. Could role forward in first not a problem. Stopped the engine, put it in reverse and started her up and rolled backwards while letting the ckutch out. Into first and straight home I go. Tried it again with engine running...nope. The tranny fluid is up (OK).
I have noticed this summer it seems that it is a little more difficult to change gears especially going into first and going into second. 3 and 4 seem ok. It is most difficult going into first when the engine/tranny are cold but seems to get easier as both warm up with a little driving. There is no "grinding" when changing gears just harder to get it into the next gear (second). Oh Ya, All new clutch components during the restore. The A type OD works just fine.
I operate with a blend of LUCAS Heavy duty oil stabilizer, LUCAS Hub oil and 10W50 motor oil. None of the LUCAS products are synthetic. The hub oil is to try and stop her from marking her teritory:)
It happend extremely all of a sudden...worked OK when pulling out of garage and when I made my first stop.
Help is appreciated guys.
Rick C


I know Dr Bill...pull the tranny cover.

Rick Crawford

I'm certainly no tranny expert. But it just sounds like a clutch adjustment. I hope so.
Tom

Rick,
I'm with Tom, and would check out the clutch hydrualics first. Symptoms match mine when my slave cylinder started leaking. The simplest test is to measure the amount of movement on the slave pushrod when someone steps on the clutch. If its a hydraulic problem, you'll see less than a half inch of travel. In my case, fluid oozed out on my arm and made the diagnosis messy and easy.
Its a lot easier first step than removing the tranny cover, so hopefully you'll be lucky and find your problem in a more convenient place.

Mark
Mark Hauser

Tom and Mark
Thanks for the input. I will check the travel and while I am under there may as well do a blead of the system (I am going to try reverse before I do anything just for the heck of it). I use DOT 5 and maybe I have a little air in the slave. Reservoir in clutch master has only required a very little "toping up" in last 3 years. Fully new hydraulic system during restoration. I recall a thread a year or so ago about someone making the slave push rod longer/adjustable..will do a search on it.
Here's to hoping you are both correct..thanks.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Update:
Just went out and tried reverse with engine started. Into reverse slick as silk...not even a peep of a grind. Even going into first seemed a little easier. So next will be to check travel and a bleed.

Mati, I am blaming this whole thing on you:) She must have heard your comment.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Hi Rick

Check all of above plus end play on the crankshaft dropped thrust washers? And for a broken clutch fork pin?

Those 2 seem to be items that cause sudden problems. Hydraulics tend to creep up.

When I dropped my thrust washers the first symptom was can't get it in reverse if the car was on a steep incline. Front wheels up higher. Left shut off for a few miutes at that angle. Start and try to put in reverse no go. Sitting flat it would work.

Luck
Bill
Bill Brayford

Bill
Thanks for the phone call..what a guy!
I tried to move the fan blade backwards with the clutch fully depressed. I could not move it at all other than rotating it. I tried rotating and pulling backwards at same time. As my son let the clutch out, I saw no forward movement at all. Do I need to use a pry bar to attempt to move the fan backwards?
Also I have at least a .5" travel of the slave push rod. Yes I agree with you....there is definite possibility I have air or water in the system. Will do a blead today with wife after the grandaughter goes home. Will let you all know.
Thanks guys
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Hi Rick

No prybar should be needed. Sounds OK.

Problem seems to come and goright? 1/2 inch to 5/8 is about right for slave rod travel.

Since the problem seems to come and go and you have never drained and refilled the fluid in 3 years. That would be my next bet.

If the fluid has a bit of contanination as in condensation it will compress differently hot and cold. May be an air bubble moving around as well? Cheap simple try. Plus it needs it.

Bill
Bill Brayford

Hi Rick,

When you're checking for play you do need to push the damper pulley towards the rear of the car with a pry bar and then watch for movement while your son pushes the clutch. If you don't push it back you likely won't see any movement.

Doug
Doug Campbell

Hi Rick!

Glad to hear you're back in the groove.

If this had taken any longer to manifest itself, you're wife would have found chores for you do around the house! You could be at Home Depot right now picking out new colors for the living room or worse, helping her tend to the weeds in the garden!! Thank me later.

For what it's worth, I had similar symptom last year and discovered that my Slave Cylinder was leaking. Both it and my Clutch MC went about the same time.
mh
Mati Holland

Hi All

Pondering Dougs comment it came to mind that your a younger fella. Muscles not fully developed. Not an old bull like myself? Or as you put it in e-mail an elder. You may need a bit of help with a pry...:) Wouldn't hurt to check Rick. All teasing aside.

Due to fan and angle getting at it with enough force may need a pry. Find just pulling back works for me? Don't get carried away it is a damper so I suggest a block in the center of fan.

Bill
Bill Brayford

Mati
One thing Cheryl and I learned long ago is NOT to paint or hang wallpaper together.
As far as the garden is concerned, those who attended the first annual TR6BBSBBQ will testify that, that area is strictly out of bounds for me...besides all I have to ask is: is that a weed and the reply is:" just cut the grass" :) Cheryl is in the middle of putting in a brick fire pit... YA HOOO..less grass to cut!

Rick C....the younger old guy
Will do the pry bar thing this afternoon. Went for a drive yesterday...no problems...go figure...but then I did manage to get rid of 97% of the scratch I put on her bootie:) Have no leaks in either of the cylinders but the DOT 5 is 3 years old and have only done a bleed when first installed. I think I will do a bleed to see if I get an air bubble then just drain and put in fresh DOT 5.
Rick Crawford

Update
The car has me baffled. I used a pry bar to try to push fan and pully towards back of engine with the cluch in. Then clutch is released. I saw and felt no movement in either direction. I bled off some clutch fluid into a glass jar and saw no water. The fluid was very clean. Topped the clutch MC and went for a drive. No problems and might have felt a little easier to go into second....wierd. Thanks for help guys.



On a more serious note: I got an e-mail from Don Elliott. He has not been feeling right for about 3 months now and says he sleeps about 16 hours a day. He has been in the hospital for most of the latter part of this month. He is going back in to the hospital later this week for more test. It sounds like his hemoglobin count is way low.
I sent Don a get well message.
58tr3a at videotron.ca


Rick C
Rick Crawford

Hi Rick

I screwed up on my description to you. Regarding thrust washer test. Wasn't thinking just rattled it off. Sorry.

I was just rereading the post. And picked up that Matti was holding the clutch in while you were pushing back. Yep thats what I said but not what I meant.

You have to push crank back first fan damper whatever nobody touches the clutch. Then hang on to the fan or damper as whoever pushes the clutch in. Then you should feel slight movement. 4 thou. is perfection anything up to 12 or thirteen is acceptable. If your up at 1/8th your washers are gone.

Again sorry to all who read.

Bill
Bill Brayford

Bill
I will not say here what I said to you in the e-mail...:)
As you can appreciate, it is a little difficult to feel 4MIL or even 12MIL movement. I have a dial indicator ( I just have to find it:) with a magnet base. It has that wobbly tip dohicky on it. I will try to set that up.

Thanks Bill
Ickard:)
Rick Crawford

Bill et Al

I managed you use a feeler gauge set to get a semi accurate reading of end float. I came up with around 18MIL movement. Over 13 but no where near 125 MIL.

Comments anyone? My big question is: can I finish off the driving season then do the work when the Canadian air force has gone south?

Thanks
Rick C
Rick Crawford

No-one has mentioned one factor - a week spot in the TR6 - the bushings in the clutch release shaft - for god knows what reason, was reduced to half what it was in the earlier cars, so wears radically. Fortunately, I was alerted to this through this board so when I was doing my major rebuild a couple of years back, I put TWO bushings per side AND drilled a hole between for a zerk so it can be greased - ONE stroke of the gun - no more.This is one other place where you can lose throw.
Have not been on the board for a while as after the rebuild have not had a single problem of any kind. Now have 10,000 miles on TeResa without a hickup and she is my most TRusted transportation. Hope this helps. Peter
PS please feel free to email me if you want more details.
Peter Gooch

Peter
Good to hear from you. Glad you are problem free.

It could have been me doing the alerting. I mentioned it at least 3 years ago and did the double up like you. I did not do the grease fitting thing though..a good idea Pete. I do not think it is an issue with me.
Regards
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Hi Rick

Well if you want advice from a senile old guy as mentioned in your e-mail your going to have to speak up there sonny. Now what was I looking for? Hearing aid/band aid or my shotgun for that young whipper-snapper. Dang I can't remember...:)

No problem driving. Thrusts just show wear. You mentioned your doing work on the lower end anyway.

Did the hydraulic bleed cure the reverse problem? Whats your hydraulic rod travel distance on the clutch arm not the rod clevis. Best way to measure is with a square and tape from any given point near clevis.

Gramps

Bill Brayford

Going to be a LONG winter, huh, Bill....
Brent B

Bill

I think the young whipper-snapper did measure the way you suggested. I measured the hole in the push rod (TRF plate CF21) and its travel horizontally as it is clevis pinned in the center hole of the clutch shaft (Plate CF15). I agree the clutch shaft "arm" will have more travel at the lower hole. The travel, as posted earlier, was/is about .5 inch. Also the bleed did not really change the "feel" of the pedal and is still a little difficult to get into second when not up to operating temp. (tranny fluid warmed up). I have had no problem trying to go into reverse since that one time.????? The DOT5 when I did the bleed looked very clean and saw no water floating but then I did not have the glass jar directly in the right place for the first "squirt" of fluid out of the bleed nipple (inexperience of a young whipper-snapper:).
Reading some old threads it is funny how most of us seem to go into second then first when starting to nove. I might try the double clutch for second gear. Thanks for your help all.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

Hi Rick

The reason I mentioned taking the reading on the arm is the clevis and pin can be worn oval. As SteveP mentioned on another subject losing a tiny bit at several points can be a problem if your only looking at a half inch? Your about right at a half inch and above arm travel on any I've seen. Using the tapemeasure and square makes life easier geating an accurate read.

I notice your 2nd gear problem clears up as things get warm? And your using DOT 5. I don't use the 5 stuff in anything so I have no first hand experience. Now since the clutch is a fixed travel device rather than a keep pushing like brakes. When you hit the floor its travel is done? Temperature compression variance may be a big problem I think?

You might want to read this article. Heres an excerpt.

Secondly, and more importantly, the compressibility of silicone fluid is very unstable throughout the temperature range encountered in normal usage. As the temperature increases, the pedal travel necessary to compress the fluid changes, resulting in unpredictable pedal height.

http://www.thebrakeman.com/fluid_tech

Bill




Bill Brayford

Bill
The entire clutch system is new at restore....well the master was rebuilt, with new slave and rod plus new red flex line. Last year I even went as far as to replace the pedal box bushes (Plate DL4)..now this is a little critter that gets totally forgotten about! My push rod on the master , if memory serves me, was OE and might have some elongation to it? Keep in mind Bill, this just started this driving season. This winter I shall have a closer look at (pull it off) the master rod and clevis pin.
Next summer will tell more I guess.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

My clutch on the TR4 varies as yours does, Rick. It doesn't creep in gear, but I take it easy on the starter by leaving it out of gear most times. I use DOT 4. I can't really say it's temp related. But it really works ok, not worth rebuilding until it starts to leak bad. Until you decide to tear it all apart again, maybe just push the pedal down twice (or just a little bit, up, then all the way), it will pump up just like the brakes will. Shift to a synchronized gear first (actually don't need to engage the gear all the way to stop the gearset) to minimise the grind. Kinda makes you wonder why they just didn't use a cable, eh?

At least we have the popularity of the Girling masters on our side. Even sand rails use them. Nascar teams do too. If only the seals wouldn't deteriorate, hydraulics would be great.
Tom

Yep I know Rick

Thats why I'm not suggesting the usual stuff. I don't think its mechanical? If the thrusts are OK.

Found the concept of DOT 5 not getting entrained by water but slugging or developing a water bubble instead interesting. No one states that bubble will sit at the bottom of the slave waiting to be bled?

Plus the way the clutch master works? And the fact the fluid has been in for 3 years. This last running year has been damp and cool? Now a slug of water floating around in the clutches hydraulics varying hot and cold may just be a demon worth flushing?

Just thougts on the temperature variance resolving the problem?

Bill



Bill Brayford

Rick-I share your pain having had the same problem with the clutch deciding not to release. If you have eliminated all of the usual suspects of oval holes (including the hole in the brake pedal) try going to the larger .75" master cyl as suggested. It provides enough extra movement at the slave cyl to solve the problem. Dick Taylor on the 6 pack list also recommends lengthening the master cyl push rod by 3/16" as a last resort. Lengthening the slave cyl push rod won't help. I am not sure the silicon fluid is a factor. Although the article on brake fluid Bill mentioned was interesting, my experience has been very positive. In fact, my TR3 had the same dot 5 fluid for over 10 years (as per the manufactuers warranty) with out any problems. Nelson Riedel researched the subject and presented a very convincing argument for using dot 5 fluid. The Buckeye tech articles can still be retrieved by going to: http://www.archive.org/web/web.php and putting in the Buckeye site.
Berry Price
BTP Price

Berry
Thanks for the link to the Buckeye site archives. I thought their TECHNICAL page had shrunk a bit (to say the least:). A lot of the stuff there is the same as the old Zimmerman site.
This I found very interesting:

quote:"Extensive testing of brake systems with 50/50 mixes of silicone and glycol-based fluids have shown that the mixtures performed properly with no failures recorded.
Silicone based DOT5 fluid is slightly compressible but the compressibility is manageable at temperatures below which the standard Glycol fluids vapor lock (wet boiling point).
Silicone based fluid retains small suspended air bubbles. This requires extra care when filling the reservoir and may require a subsequent bleeding a few days after first filling the system to extract any air bubbles that remained in suspension during the initial bleeding." end of quote.

This is an unbeleivable THESIS(sp). I skipped over some of it...you will see what I mean if you read it:)
Goes agains what I thought would happen if you did a straight change from DOT4 to DOT5 with just a flush and refill! Very good article By Mr. Riedel !!!

I am glad I went the route of DOT 5 (in my TR6 not daily drivers).


Book mark that link guys and key in www.buckeye.org
you will get a list of dates. I selected NOV.25 2003 and it took me back in history. Aug.8,2003 did not.

Thanks again Beery.

Rick C
Rick Crawford

As far as DOT 5 vs DOT 4 - I've had absolutely no issue with "compressibility". Not really sure how it was measured, but 1) could have been the result of the air bubbles that are mentioned, and 2) would it really be an issue above a glycol "wet boiling point", which is quite high? I have a good, firm pedal.

The only thing I noticed with switching from glycol to silicone is that no matter how good a flush, pockets of glycol-based crud will remain sequestered in the caliper/brake cylinders and PWDA. Since it will have a somewhat higher water content, it will sit there and corrode metal and help o-rings break down. Probably makes some organic acids...

I blew the lines out with compressed air when I made the switch, and went with silicone. Rebuilt the master cyinlder within a year. No big deal. Found crud in there - in fact some of the crud washed back up into the fluid resevoir...

The next year I was experiencing too much drag on the calipers. Renewed seals and found a bunch of crud & minor corrosion in there which was fixable. Within 6 months a wheel cylinder started leaking. No issue - threw the old ones away and went new. Then 2 weeks later the PDWA started leaking. Also crudded up, but easily fixed.

It's been 2 years now since all that. The maintenance left the brake system essentially new. All has been very well since then.

The moral of the story is that it would be wise to do all that at once during a fluid switch-over to get it over with. Odds are you'll do it anyway.

Brent
Brent B

Rick,
Two other quick tries that might help.
-Check to make sure the bleed nipple and the hose aren't reversed. The slave can be mounted upside down so the nipple is lower than the hose. It could make it impossible to bleed the last bit of air or water out. It does fit both ways and could be easy to miss. The nipple has to be at the top.
-The rod from the slave is likely connected to the clutch level using the middle hole of the three. You can get a little more clutch action by moving it to the top hole.

It sounds like its right on the edge of working right, so maybe a small change can put you over the top.

Mark
Mark Hauser

OOps. Bill's comment above made me realize my last post has a mistake in it(shouldn't post at night). The bleed nipple at the top is set up well to catch air, but if water 'sits at the bottom of the slave', its exactly wrong for getting that out. Dr. Bill's theory about water in the slave sounds pretty good.

Mark
Mark Hauser

Hey Rick:

Sounds repetitive but my clutch slave cylinder caused the same symptoms but mine happened much quicker. Worth checking out. New ones at Obsolete are only about $80.00 Cdn.

Cheers,Bob
Bob Evans

Mark and Bob
My nipple is at the top. This winter I plan to take it all apart. Bob the slave was brand new 3 years ago. I will have a very close look at it. Mark maybe I will try the top hole. It...I... tried to remove a few teeth again the other day. 2 pumps of the clutch pedal and in it slipped into reverse....Yup take her apart this winter.
Thanks guys
Rick C
Rick Crawford

If it ain't the clutch, it's the brakes, sigh...
Tom

Hi rick

2 pumps says air or water?

Thanks Mark excellent point! Water is heavier than brake fluid.

Mark is exactly right if there is a slug of water sitting in the slave it will stay there unless you do an initial bleed with the slave off and upside down. Other brake fluids entrain water Dot five repels it but its still there. Slug.

Only way you can get water out is remove the slave and turn over bleed down hold for a minute and open the nipple wide have someone depress the cluch very slightly if it won't gravity bleed. Run a bit then close. -*+*+-+*/896532*/8965230.Catch in a small jar just for interests sake. Don't worry about air at this point. Look for water? Then reinstall.

Get yourself a 10 dollar one man bleeder kit from crappy tire.

Tape a magnet to the container or by any other method. You want the container well above the the bleeder nipple and with enough fluid in container to prevent air coming back into the bleeder line. For a small volume system like that clutch I try to get the line full before attaching to the bleeder. I like to see whats happening? Reason for this method is air wants to move up fluid wants to move down. If you bleed it any other way you risk air!

Watch the reservoir is kept up! Pour in very slow no air?
For dot 5 or other. Setup as above open the nipple and have someone very slowly push the clutch to the floor and hold. If there is air in the system you will see it come up the line. Look for tiny bubbles as well? Neat eh? Close nipple pump slow twice and repeat. For the little bit of fluid in that clutch system I would run it all through to fresh.

If problem happens again soon water won't be a problem you have air and a seal leaking.

Bill
Bill Brayford

Et Al
Thanks for comments/help. Unfortunately it is raining cats and dogs this weekend and am not interested in "singing in the rain". Oh well the insurance comes off Nov.2nd and hopefully I get a few more runs in before the big tear down of the lower end and the clutch. Picked up a new oil pump from Jeff Z. as part of the repair.
Bill, I have a fancy One man brake bleeder....the Mityvac..handy little unit.
Rick C
Rick Crawford

This thread was discussed between 24/09/2004 and 17/10/2004

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