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Triumph TR6 - Solenoid Removal Question

In a classic example of "if it ain't broke don't fix it" I decided to replace about 6 inches of wire where they connect to the solenoid... to resolve some insulation cracking going on with my original wire.

I did some nice soldered splices and put new terminal ends on but then broke off the male terminal that the white/yellow female goes on. Ugh!

For those who don't know the 1976 solenoid, that terminal is out of sight on the back side close to the block. The only way to replace it is to remove the solenoid.

Is removing the solenoid a big deal? Will the plunger spring go boing around the shop?

Ken
Ken Shaddock

It might be easier Ken to pull the starter motor and do the repair on the bench with the solenoid still on the motor. I had to do the same repair when my terminal broke off as well. Pulling the starter motor is pretty straight forward and I would think better than fooling around with the solenoid removal.

My opinion of course.

Mike
Michael Petryschuk

Ken, I would agree with Michael. Pulling the starter is not difficult, but must come out from the bottom, as there is no room to pull it up through the engine bay.

Cheers
Pete
Pete Russell

Well okay then... but since my bride of nearly 41 years has not put a grease pit in the garage for me for Christmas I'll see how high I can get with my axle stands and crawl under there. Bet I come out with oil on my face!

Ken
Ken Shaddock

While your there. Fix the solenoid and then put it behind a box on a high shelf and get a hi torque one. You'll love it.
DON KELLY

Hey guys...

I put a new terminal on the solenoid and everything is bolted back in place but car won't start. It turns over as it did before the fix but the engine does not fire... as though there's no fuel.

In my layman's understanding the solenoid's job is to run the starter motor correct? Once it has done it's job of getting the starter motor to crank the engine it can retire until the next start up, yes?

I must have bumped something but can't think what.

Ken

Ken Shaddock

Don... I may need to replace the solenoid so what brand of hi-torque starter are you recommending if I redo both?
Ken Shaddock

Don: I see BPNW has a hi-torque unit for $189. and they have a solenoid for $35.

Since I cannot pull the starter motor without taking my exhaust pipes off of the manifold (which means the whole system has to come off) I may just replace the solenoid.

Sunny & warm and I'm skinning knuckles instead of driving!

KS 76
Ken Shaddock

I'm confused here. Isn't the solenoid part of the starter?
And the exhaust doesn't have to come off ,see Pete above.
DON KELLY

Ken, the the starter with the solenoid will drop down once unbolted. There is no need to remove stuff to pull it up and out. I think there are only 4 bolts to remove and it will drop down along with the solenoid.
Not difficult.

Cheers
Pete
Pete Russell

Hi Pete, Don... must be the way the twin exhaust pipes were installed on my car. They come down from the manifold and curve rearward to the next set of pipes leaving no room to drop the starter down and out. In fact, I can barely get my hands in around the pipes to undo the lower of the two bolts that hold the starter in place.

The solenoid is integrated Don but a separate unit from the starter motor. By removing the starter's bolt visible from the top and loosening the bolt visible from under the car it is possible to dislodge and rotate the starter away from the block enough to access the bolts that hold the solenoid. One can then lift the solenoid out upward for rework or swap.

I'm assuming that where I attached the new terminal onto the solenoid I was unsuccessful in making contact inside the solenoid head hence the wire (W/Y) to the coil through a ballast is causing an open circuit. I'll try a continuity test next and see if that is the case. If that's the fault I'll see if I can grab a solenoid somewhere and get back on the road. Thanks for responding.

Ken
Ken Shaddock

Unless yours is different the starter comes with the solenoid.
I just sold a hi torque unit that wouldn't fit with my headers.
Pete does the 72 and later with the twin down tubes compromise the removal of the starter from the bottom. Or, does Ken not have a stock system?

Where the heck is Rick when you need him
DON KELLY

Don: No, I do not have a stock system which may be the problem. I have a Double S system which has two 45mm (nearly 2") pipes coming down from the manifold exit.

KS
Ken Shaddock

Well that's your problem. You will WANT to pull all apart and then Get the starter from TSI as his is one of the very few that will work. That stock starter sucks a lot of the heat coming off those headers.


DON KELLY

Ok. Sorry about that Ken. Looks like you have to remove "stuff". Incidently mine is also not stock as I have headers, but the starter does come down, then back a little before she comes out.
Good luck Ken.

Cheers
Pete
Pete Russell

Ken, I have TRF's SS 6 into 2 header. When I went with a high torque starter a few years ago, I used the TSI stater. Ted wasn't sure if it would fit or not, so I tried it and it did. I was concerned about the heat so I bent up a heat shield out of a piece of galvanised that I had lying around. If I recall the starter itself has 4 bolts that hold it together, (see Don's pic, not the mounting bolts), the heat shield is held on by the bottom 2. I don't know if it makes a differance or not, but I feel better.

Rob
rw loftus

Hey Don... what a sweet little package. I was impatient and ordered another solenoid last night like the original so I'm committed for now to go that route and get back on the road. If there's any problem with that deal I will go with what you suggest. TSI... hmmm don't know them.

Next year I hope to get more focused on performance and cosmetics in the engine bay. In addition to that starter/solenoid combo I see green hoses, a pertronix coil, better plug wires, some polish or paint here and there, new carb breathers... maybe K&N instead of the factory 2 in 1 filter cover and so on. Some pizzazz...

Rob: Thanks for the tip re the heat shield. The wiring alone is close to the manifold and engine block so some protection makes sense.

Ken

PS. Pete/Don... did you find that the headers made a big difference?
Ken Shaddock

only if you have the rest of the package to warrant the headers. Actually Kas has said that the stock manifold draws very well.
DON KELLY

Man this thread is confusing....but then I get confulicated easily.

Ken I am sure you have the standard manifold and exhaust system that came with your car.

I quote you....." I have a Double S system which has two 45mm (nearly 2") pipes coming down from the manifold exit." This sounds like the 2 pipe system to me. Headers are very obvious. A picture of what you have is worth 1000 words but I am sure what you have matches up with TRF VOL1 BY24.
but then I read your "Posted 13 July 2009 at 16:27:35" post and am not sure. Please post a pic.
Soooooo.....You should be able to pull the starter off with a little effort and no need to remove anything. Keep in mind that the starter only has 2 nuts and bolts holding it to the bell housing and if I recall the top nut and bolt are reversed to the bottom one for simple ease of getting a socket at the bolt head (open to correction here...it was 8 years ago).

Ken, if after you changed a terminal connector and the engine turned over then the starter is OK. The solenoid does not affect engine spark...it only "starts" the engine turn over during starting. Installing a new solenoid will not change anything. Not starting is another issue. Check the WY wire attached to the starter other terminal. This is probably why it will not start. This WY wire bypasses the ballast resistor to start the car (higher voltage to the coil) and is ONLY used in the key position of "start".
(Do not get me started on ballast VS non- ballast ignition systems)


Sorry Ken but I repeat myself. Get the engine running...quite tinkering...and just enjoy the car. there are plenty of winters ahead to fix this and play with that. Like you said lad, if it ain't' broke, don't fix it.


Rick
Rick Crawford

Hey Rick... thanks for chiming in here.

You said: "Check the WY wire attached to the starter other terminal." Can you clarify please.

BTW, I can crawl under tomorrow and try to get a picture but believe me when I say there ain't no way that starter is coming DOWN and out the bottom. The two pipes joined to the stock manifold and curve around through toward the rear do block any chance of an escape. As I mentioned, I can barely get my fingers around the pipes to fiddle with the bolt, washer, nut, and wrenches, etc. It may be possible to pull the starter UP and out with the breather removed but since I was able to remove the solenoid without removing the starter I did not try.

Now, the new solenoid came in (whether I needed it or not) today and I will complete the installation Thursday. We'll see if that helps. Another LBC owner suggested that I may have disturbed the big brown wires that connect to the smaller ones near the battery. They merge in a large black junction box... I'm sure you know the one.

Ken

Ken Shaddock

BTW, the solenoid slides out intact rather nicely. The wired housing, the plunger rod, it's outer spring, and the balance of the rear slotted and sprung section that hooks on the lever that reaches down into the starter remained together. When I put the new unit in I hooked the slot of the rear section over the lever (from the top) to re-engage the two and Bob's your uncle the solenoid and starter were a team again... mechanically anyway. I'll rewire tomorrow and turn the key.

Ken
Ken Shaddock

WY

Need to understand wire colours.
White/Yellow
DON KELLY

I understood the wire WY color reference Don and that wire runs to/from the coil but Rick's "starter other terminal" was not clear to me. In any event I have the Dan Masters book and his drawing for year 76 so I have things wired correctly. Charging the battery as I type this and will fire up tomorrow.

Ken
Ken Shaddock

Never mind then, my bad
DON KELLY

Ken
You got the colour WY. I was refering to the other teminal on the starter. Yes you have it wired correctly but the prince of darkness could be playing games with you....thus no starter motor turn over and no engine start.
Rick Crawford

For the next guy I make this entry...

After I installed the new solenoid the car would not turn over... just 'click' like a dead battery but my battery was fresh. Here's what happened:

The Prince of Darkness was lurking but I should have spotted him... or at least recognized Murphy's Law. One of the two threaded posts (STA) on the new solenoid was loose when I opened the box. I tightened the nut up but the plate at the other end of the post (inside the cap of the solenoid out of sight) had become dislodged creating a dead short. We (my mechanic) loosened off the nut, pulled the post snug in it's interior recess, and retightened the nut. Short circuit now open. After all wires were reattached to the solenoid she fired right up.

Mama said there'd be days like this...

K
Ken Shaddock

This thread was discussed between 09/07/2009 and 20/07/2009

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