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Triumph TR6 - starting engine

Thanks to the help from Don, Im just about ready to try and fire her up. Since the engine has been sitting for 9 months or so with out running and oil being drained, is there was a way to prime the engine prior to start up so I don't cause any internal damage? Thanks
SBF Fitzgerald

SBF,
Remove the distributor. Fashion a tool from a 5/8" spade bit (I'll send you a photo if you send your email address-dbakerZEROFOURATaolDOTcom-fix the uppercase appropriately). Use the tool with your trusty Dewalt Cordless screwdriver and spin up your oil pump to liberally lubricate all internal engine parts. Look for the oil to seep out of the rocker arm. Dont' worry too much if you don't see oil at the #1 rocker. It's the last in line and you likely won't generate enough oil pressure to get that far. If you have oil on the rocker arm rod, you'll know your oil galleys are open and functioning. Were I you, I'd also hand turn the engine over several times to lubricate the cylinder walls. You may want to discconect the fuel pump so that you don't overcharge the combustion chamber with raw fuel. Just MHO, of course.
db
Doug Baker

Doug, since it had run before, do you think all that is really needed.
I would just pull the coil wire and let it turn over a bit. Watch the oil pressure.
Then start it up . Make sure there is fuel in the carbs
Don Kelly

Mine sat for eleven years in a womans garage....I pulled the plugs, changed the fluids, cranked her freely a few without the plugs....then put them in and fired it up, so far two years later and she seems no worse for wear. Good compression, good power, no smoke or tapping.
JT White

Just as JT did, my recomendation
Don Kelly

Don't know how long SBF's has not run. If short time in controlled conditions, no rust in cylinders etc, what y'all recommend seems reasonable to me, but if concerned about making sure all is lubbed, I'd spin up the oil filter first!@! Does not take much effort to grind the bit down and taking the distributor out is unscrewing two nuts Again, IMHO!!
db
Doug Baker

Doug, he says 9 montths
Don Kelly

ok, so it was a sad no go. I turn the key and my courtesy lamps came on, but when I went to turn over the motor, i get nothing at all. However, funny thing, when I went to see if the starter was getting power, I hooked up my multi-meter to the starter and the ground on the battery, the car jumped! now im not familiar with electronics, but what did that mean? To me it sounds like the started needs to be ground out? or am I wrong on that
SBF Fitzgerald

Hello,
Make sure that your starter is wired up. Also if you opt for the method Doug is recommending for priming the oil pump, dizzy out, you have to run your electric drill anti-clockwise.
Kypros Christodoulides

Thanks for the help guys. Sometimes I feel like Im wasting your time. After looking at the instruction manual this morning with a clear head, I noticed the grounding wires for starter relay/fuel relay and the "anti-run?" switch. Im pretty sure I didnt ground them out yet and that would explain the reaction I got from the starter last night. Once I get the engine running, I plan on testing out each system with plenty of picture to follow. Thanks again guys!
SBF Fitzgerald

So, i had the wires backwards on the starter solenoid. With that, the motor is turning over, however I am not getting ignition. I looking at the wiring diagram and it shows a ground on the dist. but im not seeing any grounding point on it. As soon as I connect the battery, there was a little smoke coming from the distributer and when I took the cover off, I saw a little black wire "came apart" so I reconnected it and the same thing happened. Besides the spark plug wire and ignition wire, I has a "jumper hooked up between that dist and the coil as directed in the diagram. Im almost thinking that maybe thats the ground?
SBF Fitzgerald

The ground for the diz is the attachment to the motor.
There is no other ground there
Don Kelly

hmmm what would cause the small amount of smoke then? when I lubrucated it, I did spill a little bit of oil on the inside. I know it was an oops. It just didnt smell like oil to me
SBF Fitzgerald

Wouldn't do it NIMO. Sounds like something else is wrong.
You running points?
Don Kelly

Ok, i think its going to be a bad ground. The jumper cable between the dist and coil was hot and the top of the coil was also pretty hot. From past experiances it seems to me that the coil was trying to ground itself out through that. Ill try again on thursday. Atleast the motor cranks :-)
SBF Fitzgerald

No Spark! im not getting spark! so Ive gotten it down to that. From the trouble shooting in the book, It says to replace the mechanical parts. So I just buy the rebuild kit? I may have smoked something when the coil wasnt properly grounded.
SBF Fitzgerald

Is coil suppose to be grounded?
Don Kelly

Not sure if you are using points or electronic but if points.

The coil positive connection should be ultimately be hooked to the ignition switch. If you have the ignition on, put the positive meter lead to it and the negative lead to a ground point somehwere. You should have 12V.If not, you are not getting power to the coil and that needs to be corrected.

The negative connection of the coil should go to the distributor points. This connection needs to be insulated from the distributor. When the points are closed you should get 12 volts across the coil connections. When points are open there should be no voltage acroos the coil. If there is, then you have a short between the coil wire , distributor and points.

Disconnect all connections to the coil. If you put an ohm meter between the positive lead on the coil and the high tension lead and do not get an infinite reading (or show low resistance), then you have burned the coil and will need to replace it. If you also connect to the positive lead and a ground point on the negine you should get infinite resistance. If not the coil is shorted.

If you put the meter on the positive and negative leads of the coil and crank the engine you should get 12 volts on and off each time the points open and close.

Please try the above and report findings. Without the on and off of the 12V circuit of the coil, you will generate no spark. If you are getting on and off voltage, then the problem is probably the coil or high tension leads to the distributor and plugs.

Good luck

Michael Petryschuk

Mike- Don't forget that he has the Advance Panel.
It's a round about way. Goes thru a relay and all kinds of stuff.
Do you have that schematic of his panel?
Don Kelly

Nope Don

I don't think I have a schematic of the advance panel. Not sure then how it might affect troubleshooting the problem.

One thing is for sure, if there is a coil and you crank the engine, you should be getting on and off 12 V on the primary coil otherwise there will be no spark. If no 12V on and off the problem is on the primary circuitry. If you get on and off 12V then the problem is spark plug leads, distributor cap and rotor.

Michael Petryschuk

I know this is stating the obvious for many, but this could be something very simple.

If you are running points, the first thing I look at on one with no spark is the connection between the low tension lead and the points. It should be directly against the spring. If the plastic washer is against the spring with the low tension lead on top, the circuit will be incomplete.

You would be shocked at the number of cars that used to show up at the dealership on the end of a hook come Monday morning after an attempted home tune up over the weekend. Within a couple of minutes the car was usually up and running once the low tension lead was correctly positioned. This was just another part of the "growing up around a dealership" experience.
SteveP1

Guilty of that myself a couple of times past.

Steve must have been busy as he just caught up on things
Don Kelly

Here we go. I replaced the coil with a "petronix flame thrower" and upgraded to electronic ignition. So The points are gone. Steve, thats why I got rid of the points. I didnt want to run into that problem.
I am getting power to the ignition switch-12.5v across the board. Below is a picture of the starter. As you guys can see/know, there is the main power supply, followed by 2 leads on the side. If I wire them up as it shows in the picture(copy from diagram) I get no response, however if I swap the to the motor with rotate but I will not get any ignition.
My mind is fried, so I had to leave the garage.
When the battery cable is hooked up to the starter, with nothing else, I DO NOT get any reading on the 2 leads.
When I had the points, I was getting a weak spark when the car was in ACC but not when turned to RUN. I know thats backwards! Everything is wired correctly, nothing is crossed. I need help on this one. Once I get the car started, I can figure everything else out!
Thanks guys
SBF Fitzgerald

No picture.

It sounds like there is a wire crossed somehwere if the ACC gives spark but the ON does not. Maybe the wires are not on the ignition switch correctly.

You may need to hot wire the car by bypassing the ignition system to at least isolate where the real problem is. If you connect the battery directly to the positive side of the coil and crank the engine you should get spark if your iginition system is correct. If you do, then, you have a wiring problem to the ignition system.

What year is the car? I am looking at the schematics of the later year cars and note there is a relay, a ballast wire and some other stuff that affects the circuit to the coil. One purpose of the relay is to by pass the ballast resister wire and put 12 V directly to the coil when starting the car and when the starter is released, the coil gets its voltage through the ballast wire which reduces the voltage. I think this system was added to reduce nitrous oxide production (emission control)but I can't remember for sure.

My 69 doesn't have that stuff.
Michael Petryschuk

sorry its not letting me upload it. its a 1974 and I am using the advance wire kit. Basically if I swapped the starter realy lead with the coil lead on the starter, the car will crank...vise-versa nothing
SBF Fitzgerald

You need to change it to a jpg. Then your good to go
If you can't ,send it to me .I'll do it
Don Kelly

Ok, trouble shot to a bad starter solenoid. Its staying energized instead of cutting out.
Also with the turn signals- they arent getting power. Its loosing voltage somewhere. This morning we figured out the even if you remove the turn signal relay and fuse, there is still power going to the points. Its not until you remove the fuel pump relay do you lose the power. I contacted Dan Masters about it and he's going to get back to me....Its funny, the hazards work, but the turn signals wont, even we theres voltage.
SBF Fitzgerald

Don't see why the hazard working and the TS not surprises you.
They get power separately,at least in my panel
Don Kelly

mine they get the same power. The Hazard and TS meet up at the toggle switch where the power is transfered to the hazard witht he switch on, and switch off they power is supposed togo to the TS
SBF Fitzgerald

Send me your schematic
donnkelly@comcast
Don Kelly

ok guys, sorry but Ive been busy at work. Anyway, I got the turn signals to work. It was a bad ground! go figure. So now back to the starter. I have everything hooked up right NOW, so I had to replace the solenoid. When the starter is back in, As soon as I put the key to ACC I can hear the starter spin, but its not extending probably because I have the solenoid in wrong. With that why is it energizing as soon as its is ACC? Should it be doing that?
SBF Fitzgerald

Hi SBF

No the starter motor should not spin when they key is switched to the accessory position. Sounds like you have the ignition switch connected incorrectly.

Colin
C J Norcott

There's some fuzzy memory about wrong labeled iggy switches down deep.
Hopefully soon will come out
Don Kelly

Does this help? Might be different for US cars.

Colin

C J Norcott

thats what I was think don, colin. I have to buy a new starter, so once I get that, Im going to swap around the ignition wires and see what happens. At this point, Im willing to try anything. Thanks for the pic colin
SBF Fitzgerald

You getting a stock one or smaller one?
Don Kelly

hey don, just got back from a TDY. I got the smaller one that TRF sells. I hooked it up according to what the instructions say, and now I am not getting anything. I do have power doing to the starter but nothing is happening now, no relay clicking, nothing. By any chance, have you bought on of these? Also don, if you could email me your shipping adress-Svenlacrosse@yahoo.com
SBF Fitzgerald

Also, I just jumped the starter and the motor turns over but like always doesnt start yet. So I hink Im just going to start putting the rest of the wires(ie dash wiring) and just clean it all up. Ive spent about 4000 on new stuff, but may just sell it as not running at a lower price then I paid for it. Im loosing motivation. Oh well
SBF Fitzgerald

I got Teds as that is the only one that fits my headers
Don Kelly

Don't do that , you'll loose your shorts
Don Kelly

Don't give up SBF. But you may have to seek a mechanic and bring it in to help trouble shoot. It sounds like each wire needs to be traced.
Michael Petryschuk

Finally found the schematic for your year.
One big question
Are you sure you do not have the WR12 and the WR14 switched?
That would cause some trouble
Don Kelly

well the im going off the size. to make sure of it, after work tomorrow Ill take the micrometer to it and make sure Im right. I know what you thinking Don, everything leads to a crossed wire somewhere
SBF Fitzgerald

update: well I found a ground that fell off, so with that hooked up, the car will try and start in the start position like its supposed too. However wont start yet. I dont think I am getting spark. Pulled the wire from the dizzy of the coil, put a spark plug in it and didnt see spark. So after dinner, Im going to check some more wires and see whats going on. Seems when I get gain ground, I loose something. But I am getting motivated!
SBF Fitzgerald

Hey, where's the daily update?
Don Kelly

haha, didnt get into the garage last night. worked late and did the family thing
SBF Fitzgerald

From Bobby D.


Don Kelly

Thnaks Don. Ive looked at that before, and everything is good. I am getting 12v to the coil. Still, the car wont start...
SBF Fitzgerald

A.What fuel pump are you using?
B. Are you getting fuel at the carbs?
Don Kelly

Thats actually what I think I was moving too next.I am using the stock mechanical pump, and When I pump the gas, a few months ago, it dripped out(flooded) now when I do it, nothing. I took off a fuel line that goes to the pumps, and fuel was coming out. Thats as far as Ive made it so far
SBF Fitzgerald

fuel pump works. I took the plug from the bottom of the carbs and drained fuel out of them, and crank again, nothing. So I am getting fuel, and air. Now just need spark. I should be getting spark. When I tested for spark it still seemed to be weak. I tried jumping the coil with the battery and motor still just cranks.
SBF Fitzgerald

The next big thing, Is the fuel getting to the intake??
Pull a plug
This thing was working fine before the wiring, correct?
Don Kelly

yup.Pull a plug like a sprak plug? if so I did that and had a weak spark. IS there a way to pour fuel into the carbs like you can on american carbs?
SBF Fitzgerald

Ya need to smell that plug and see if it is wet.

By the way, received the care package and is appreciated though no thanks necessary.
Just trying to help.
Don Kelly

Don always helping me out. Ive been reading on british-cars.net and someone else is having the same problem I have, so Im gonna try to make sure air is getting sucked in through the carb, and make sure my timing is right.
SBF Fitzgerald

You never answered my question if it was running before the rewire?
Don Kelly

Sorry Don. It was, Sadly. Sometimes I ask myself why did I do all of this...Well To get my timing, I pulled of my timing cover off and since I am not sure if I am getting TDC and if the crank/cam are lined up according to the book, my freind he might come over and help me with it. Since I am getting spark, the only thing I can figure is the timing is off. I did replace the timing chain, so I might have lined it up wrong. :( I will get this car running one way or another
SBF Fitzgerald

UH-OH
Don Kelly

Ah ha - maybe that should have been mentioned earlier. Easiest way to tell if you are timed properly - line up the external timing marks on the harmonic balancer when you think the number one piston is finishing its compression stroke and getting ready to fire. (be wary as you can line up the marks and be on number 6 firing). Look at the rotor. It should be pointing fairly closely to the number 1 spark plug wire on the distributor cap. At same time both valves on the number one piston should be closed and neither beginning to open or close. If it isn't that way, camshaft or distributor timing is out and it will never start.
Michael Petryschuk

Well we reset the timing with the cam/crank grears and chain. NothiWe went to the coil, its getting 12v. Put a spark plug into the coil lead and had a weak spark. Put it back on, and tried to see if we got spark from a plug. No spark! So is it possible the I burned up the new coil somehow? its a petronix flamethrower and I have the electronic ignition in the dizzy. Any ideas? I am staying focused
SBF Fitzgerald

Ya got a spare? Check it out
Stick the points back in.Easier to test.
How to check a coil
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJYJ3KvPhhY

http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubleshooting/ss/coil-test-ohm_2.htm
Don Kelly

Get rid of that pertronix mess and stick with a $13 Ballasted coil from the local parts store and a simple set of points....that pertronix marvel dies on the side of the rode your car is up a creek W/O an ignition...points take seconds to replace and cost all of $4.50 for a spare set...I hear more people grown about their pertronix then those that run good ole fashioned points, been running points for years and years and years...still no problems.

http://www.vtr.org/maintain/ballast.shtml
JT White

So new coil in, still no spark at the dizzy. Is there some sort of neutral safety switch the could cause this?
SBF Fitzgerald

update: Im getting spark! however the plugs dont smell of fresh gas/arent wet, so im not getting fuel through the intake. FYI I do not have any vacuum lines hooked up to the carbs- do they need to be there? is there a certain way the carbs deliver into the combustion chambers? Im so close!
SBF Fitzgerald

I would think you would get something even if the carb vac lines are disconnected. But in any case plug the vacuum lines for now to maximise vacuum in the manifold. Make sure the vacuum tap on the manifold (power brake take off point) also is not open to the atmosphere.

I assume there is fuel in the float chambers on the carbs. Are you choking the carbs?

you can try covering the carb inlets with something and see if that forces some gas into the combustion chamber when you crank the engine.

Michael Petryschuk

Thanks Mike will do plug them and hook up the power brake line. I also assume there is fuel in te float chambers because fuel is goin into the carbs. I did try wilth the choke on/off, and I will cover the inlets
SBF Fitzgerald

update: So i plugged all the vacuum lines for now and its almost started!I had to have the key in the run position to keep it going but then it quite. It was running rough, then kept wanting to turnover but couldn't. So Im getting combustion! im going to put fresh gas in it over the weekend. Im sure I need to rotate the dizzy a little bit, but anyone have any other ideas?
SBF Fitzgerald

Almost there

You will need to confirm if you are getting spark when you release the key from the "start" to the "run" postion. Based on the wiring troubles you reported above, it is possible your ignition circuit is connected in the "start" postion but not in the "run" position. This would cause the car to die imeediately after releasing the key from "start" to "run" but if when you release the key it still tries to run then you probably have spark in the "run" position.

The symptom you have is indicative of distributor timing being out. You probably have to tweak the distributor as the timing may be off a bit.Try moving it a couple of degrees one way and if that doesn't work, try the other way. If you see it running better then you are going the right way.

Since you have the vacuum lines off and the timing may not be set well, you may want to screw in the carb idle screws a little for now. This will help the car get gas and run even if it is running roughly. Then you can fool with the distributor and carb settings to improve how it runs.

Michael Petryschuk

Great news! Shes running! I finally got the 6 running! what a great feeling. Now i Just need to clean up the wires, and its back on the road! thanks for the help guys
SBF Fitzgerald

Well....don't leave us in suspense.
Wht ws the final fix.
Think I have a stickey "a" on the keybord
Don Kelly

Excellent news Please spill the beans, we need to know what made it happen.
Michael Petryschuk

well I was truning the dizzy and the motor wanted to start so bad. so with all vacuum lines plugges, I look in the book to check my spark plug wires and found 2 crossed. once I fixed it, I turned the key and it started right up! so later today, Im going to take a timing light to it to make the timing perfect
SBF Fitzgerald

WOW!

Rick Crawford

This thread was discussed between 23/01/2012 and 20/03/2012

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